Double Bass Free Jazz and Improvised Music

[damonsmith]

For sure, and in your town more than some others! One of the reasons why free bop is frowned upon is it is where people who can't pay jazz and would like to hide out! Other issues are the rejects from other scenes using the networks and resources!
Though I'd add that I have seen far more sloppy or mediocre straight ahead bass players in my time!

It's been my experience that some play it as it can be easier to "fake into" when they are not that accomplished on their instruments, musically and technically.

There's an old story about a celebrated free jazz player who had a gig with James Moody. Moody asked him to play a Bb scale in the dressing room and he couldn't make it.

Only a small amount of jazz of any kind is as good as Ms. Emin's bed - which is a fantastic artwork! I would love to do something that good one day.

I am reminded of an article in which free jazz was described as "the musical equivalent of Tracy Emin's bed". The chap who said that is also responsible for this amusing sketch. To this day my wife will complain "Oh no, not Desolate Shore again" (or similar) when free jazz comes on shuffle in the car.

 

[Steven Ayres]

I wonder whether anyone here resonates with the idea of 'narrative' in playing free. By this I mean an image or idea underlying the sound that can act as a touchstone.

The drummer and pianist in my old trio really loved playing free, more than I did. We would typically do one or two chunks of free blowing per night in the clubs. A few listeners would get it, but for most in the audiences it usually felt like the time to order another and talk over us.

Eventually I came up with the idea of running a silent film in a club that was equipped for it, promoted as an event, us freely improvising but consciously working with the scenes as they spooled out. This gave the audiences what I think of as a narrative hook to help reinforce connection with the music. We did four or five of those, and all were very successful in maintaining audience attention and enthusiasm for what we were doing. And instead of dragging the audience around for five minutes, they were there with us for an hour and a half.

 

[damonsmith]

Narrative is better that "conversation" - it can work. The silent film idea always and works and can be great when you don't have a die hard audience.
I did this one with the great drummer William Hooker:

I haven't experienced this music being a tough sell for records or concerts, most of my albums sell out and I have seen good audiences for decades - many do far better than me.
If you play with commitment, the people will follow what you are doing. I would guess it would have been your hesitant feelings they were responding to rather than a lack of narrative, still, if that is what it took to ground your performance, it is worth it.

I wonder whether anyone here resonates with the idea of 'narrative' in playing free. By this I mean an image or idea underlying the sound that can act as a touchstone.

The drummer and pianist in my old trio really loved playing free, more than I did. We would typically do one or two chunks of free blowing per night in the clubs. A few listeners would get it, but for most in the audiences it usually felt like the time to order another and talk over us.

Eventually I came up with the idea of running a silent film in a club that was equipped for it, promoted as an event, us freely improvising but consciously working with the scenes as they spooled out. This gave the audiences what I think of as a narrative hook to help reinforce connection with the music. We did four or five of those, and all were very successful in maintaining audience attention and enthusiasm for what we were doing. And instead of dragging the audience around for five minutes, they were there with us for an hour and a half.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Mingus would apparently agree with this sentiment.

"Duke could...play a symphony of Wrong."

heh heh Mingus had a way with words, didn't he?

 

[Steven Ayres]

I haven't experienced this music being a tough sell for records or concerts, most of my albums sell out and I have seen good audiences for decades ...
If you play with commitment, the people will follow what you are doing. I would guess it would have been your hesitant feelings they were responding to rather than a lack of narrative, ...

Wow, that's an amazing judgment from literally no evidence! I'm talking about clubs, now — you know, bars and restaurants — and far outside any big-city bubble. The concert stage is a quite different environment. But you knew that, right?

 

[Don Kasper]

 

[damonsmith]

Wow, that's an amazing judgment from literally no evidence! I'm talking about clubs, now — you know, bars and restaurants — and far outside any big-city bubble. The concert stage is a quite different environment. But you knew that, right?

I mean, you said you were less into it, not me, and if you are not into the audience can tell. I've played the music in cities of all sizes in all sorts of places, all over the country and good bit of Europe, even the middle east and Mexico, for just about 27 years and I have rarely had the experience you described.
At the same time, I do recognize it isn't for everyone, so I do tend to like to have it in a place where people have the choice to listen or not.
I had a steady gig at Moroccan place in Providence, though we brought in a fair amount of listeners. In Houston we used to play bars, but the improvised music audience was steady and hard drinking, so we were always welcome.
The ideal for me really is a nice a bar with a back room or an upstairs room - the concert stage is nice, but I prefer a simple work environment for regular playing.

It is always a fun challenge taking the music to audiences that are not used to it.

 

[damonsmith]

Damn expensive, too! You are only getting those classes at places like Baird, Cal Arts, Mills, NEC, etc.

View attachment 3995736

 

[lurk]

Weird this conversation is going on. Free jazz has been around for 60 years or so and has a history and an audience. It's a pretty well established genre. It has heroic genius innovators and fakers. Duh.

 

[damonsmith]

At the same time, I get the apprehension. One of the problems the music has is that the systems of interaction are always changing, so there isn't one way we can explain "how it works". There are established methods for sure, but even those older ways of doing it include subverting things that are "working".
We move between new and old ideas of relating to each other for various reasons even in course of a single piece, across albums and sets for sure.
This is an album I really love, the best part about it for me is that just doesn't "work" but they still go on!

Weird this conversation is going on. Free jazz has been around for 60 years or so and has a history and an audience. It's a pretty well established genre. It has heroic genius innovators and fakers. Duh.

 

[Michael Karn]

I think it was Steve Lacy who took a band on the road, a band that was advertised as playing "free jazz". Either the audience and/or the promoter took that phrase literally and refused to pay

 

[Ed S]

Thanks a lot, guys, for introducing me to YET ANOTHER aspect of musicianship that I have little chance of ever comprehending - let alone appreciating or performing!

OTOH, the next time I miss a passing 2, or get lost during a break, I'll just say, "That was free, improvised bluegrass - sorry you peasants can't appreciate it!"

 

[TroyK]

Friendly moderator post here. I think that this thread has gone pretty well and has stayed respectful. Fair to say that this is a genre that not everyone gets, but as @lurk posted there have been professional artists and a dedicated listening community for it for decades upon decades. I appreciate our local experts taking the questions and offering opinions without taking (or showing) offense.

It's a delicate conversation to suggest that you don't connect with someone else's artistic expression. Please be respectful and sensitive to that, as I feel like this thread has done for the most part.

 

[Ed S]

Apologize if my post was considered over the line. If so, I guess I'll have to rethink any number of posts I've made before, expressing my inability to appreciate various aspects of other types of music which are beyond my ability/interest.

Would be unfortunate if "free, improvised jazz" is a subject that uniquely needed to be insulated from humor. I'd suggest such an attitude would only contribute to people deciding not to expose themselves to it or forming unflattering opinions.

 

[damonsmith]

You can joke about it just make sure you can play the bass as well as Mark Dresser Or Barry Guy before you do. There is a 100% chance that anonymous posters on talkbass are not playing the instrument on that level. I think the the music needn't be insulated from humor, but then neither will your own work. If your work hasn't put you on hundreds of records and taken you around the world then maybe think twice before getting cute.

Apologize if my post was considered over the line. If so, I guess I'll have to rethink any number of posts I've made before, expressing my inability to appreciate various aspects of other types of music which are beyond my ability/interest.

Would be unfortunate if "free, improvised jazz" is a subject that uniquely needed to be insulated from humor. I'd suggest such an attitude would only contribute to people deciding not to expose themselves to it or forming unflattering opinions.

 

[Ed S]

You can joke about it just make sure you can play the bass as well as Mark Dresser Or Barry Guy before you do. There is a 100% chance that anonymous posters on talkbass are not playing the instrument on that level. I think the the music needn't be insulated from humor, but then neither will your own work. If your work hasn't put you on hundreds of records and taken you around the world then maybe think twice before getting cute.

Well, we apparently disagree. So, I cannot joke about orchestral, jazz, bluegrass, whatever music if I cannot play as well as the best practitioners, and have not been on 100s of albums? Can I (or anyone else) not joke about professional athletes/actors/politicians...?

On the other side, is anyone's COMPLIMENTARY opinion worthwhile and valid, if they cannot play as well as...?

BTW - I WAS interested enough that I went to your site the other day and listened to several of your works.

I'll step out of this thread.

 

[damonsmith]

Negative and critical opinions are fine - though it should said it just makes you an average person for not getting the music, not special at all. It isn't for everyone and it isn't made for anyone to like.
You can joke about it here, not without me calling you on it. I've lost patience in this thread with the dumb and frankly old jokes, I've heard them all. As my teacher Bertram Turetkzy said, "Comedy is a high art".

Well, we apparently disagree. So, I cannot joke about orchestral, jazz, bluegrass, whatever music if I cannot play as well as the best practitioners, and have not been on 100s of albums? Can I (or anyone else) not joke about professional athletes/actors/politicians...?

On the other side, is anyone's COMPLIMENTARY opinion worthwhile and valid, if they cannot play as well as...?

BTW - I WAS interested enough that I went to your site the other day and listened to several of your works.

I'll step out of this thread.

Well, we apparently disagree. So, I cannot joke about orchestral, jazz, bluegrass, whatever music if I cannot play as well as the best practitioners, and have not been on 100s of albums? Can I (or anyone else) not joke about professional athletes/actors/politicians...?

On the other side, is anyone's COMPLIMENTARY opinion worthwhile and valid, if they cannot play as well as...?

BTW - I WAS interested enough that I went to your site the other day and listened to several of your works.

I'll step out of this thread.

 

[knirirr]

Jimmy Giuffre's Freefall might also be a way in.

I got chance to give the whole album a listen tonight - good stuff, thanks for the recommendation. Each piece seemed to have a sense of purpose.
It's an album that would fit in well with the sort of material I usually listen to on Radio 3.

 

[MrSidecar]

As my teacher Bertram Turetkzy said, "Comedy is a high art".

And this I'm sure we all can agree on, especially anybody who has ever taken her or his bass out of the house and maybe even on public transport, to be met with "flute?" jokes fired by someone who genuinely thinks a bass player hasn't heard them before.... sorry to digress.

This is a really informative and interesting thread, and I really appreciate the input experts on the subject like you, damon, are giving. -In my experience, the most "valuable" listening experience in the improvised music and free jazz "departments" can indeed be had when listening to players who in terms of their abilities could play anything imaginable and are absolute masters on their respective instruments. Fakes will sooner or later debunk themselves, I'm sure. And for me it really helps experiencing it live, as opposed to records (even though there are quite a few that I really enjoyed, ), and seeing what is going on in terms of interplay/communication.

In Houston we used to play bars, but the improvised music audience was steady and hard drinking, so we were always welcome.

Am I the only one slightly surprised by this? That sounds like your regular "traditional-jazz" gig

It is trickier than other music, in that various criteria is applied beyond whether or not you like it or not.

And this one I don't really understand. It might be a language thing, English not being my first language- but can you explain what you mean?

Best
Sidecar

 

[TroyK]

I was in Philadelphia for a wedding some year's back and looked around for jazz and ended up in this old, historic house that was some sort of a private venue. Paid a small cover and found a corner in this amazing room to wait. The audience and the musicians were dressed up for a night out (which is a nice change from Seattle) and it turned out to be a very free/improvised, but still recognizably jazz based performance. Awesome listening audience and very good musicians.

I didn't walk out tapping my toe or whistling an earworm, but it was great thing to stumble in on. My first rule for judging music is "was it honest?". If the musicians really have conviction about what they are putting out and it reaches people, then however I feel about it is personal, but not relevant.

I enjoyed the evening and would go again.