I just recently switched from french to german, and I find that german is far more comfortable for long sessions of slower, orchestral work. I also agree that french is easier on the E string. With a german grip, I find it easier to do rapid string crossings on the G&D. I haven't purchased my own bow yet, and I am debating weather to get a german of french bow. So far, I like the ergonomics of the german bow.
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Double Bass French or German?
- Thread starter jpatt2
- Start date
First of all, I'm a German Bow player who started off on French bow because that's what came with the instrument. I switched to German bow because that's what my teacher played, as did all of the bassists in the Detroit Symphony at the time where I grew up.
For people just starting out on the bow, whether you play French or German, I strongly recommend watching Andy Anderson's videos which are available on the Contrabass Conversations website. Although he plays French bow, what he teaches is easily transferred to German. The concept of "plucking" the string through the bow using your index and 2nd finger is eye opening. Also his approach to learning spiccato is great. ("Lots of hours alone in a dark practice room")
For people just starting out on the bow, whether you play French or German, I strongly recommend watching Andy Anderson's videos which are available on the Contrabass Conversations website. Although he plays French bow, what he teaches is easily transferred to German. The concept of "plucking" the string through the bow using your index and 2nd finger is eye opening. Also his approach to learning spiccato is great. ("Lots of hours alone in a dark practice room")
First of all, I'm a German Bow player who started off on French bow because that's what came with the instrument. I switched to German bow because that's what my teacher played, as did all of the bassists in the Detroit Symphony at the time where I grew up.
For people just starting out on the bow, whether you play French or German, I strongly recommend watching Andy Anderson's videos which are available on the Contrabass Conversations website. Although he plays French bow, what he teaches is easily transferred to German. The concept of "plucking" the string through the bow using your index and 2nd finger is eye opening. Also his approach to learning spiccato is great. ("Lots of hours alone in a dark practice room")
Ive seen those vids too. An excellent range of tips and hints are in those vids. Its worth downloading a copy on your computer and studying them thoroughly.
In my opinion:
A German bow allows you to apply more pressure on the strings with less effort.
However the transition between arco & pizz is more cumbersome (slower) with a German bow. With a French bow the tip is usually raised upwards while playing pizz and there is very little movement needed to get into a pizz-ready position; with a German the tip usually drops towards the floor. The latter can cause problems as it can be easy to hit your music stand with the bow when transitioning if you do not have it positioned carefully. Also it is easier to hit the bow against the side of the bass - this is a particular problem when using amplification (clunk!!).
A German bow allows you to apply more pressure on the strings with less effort.
However the transition between arco & pizz is more cumbersome (slower) with a German bow. With a French bow the tip is usually raised upwards while playing pizz and there is very little movement needed to get into a pizz-ready position; with a German the tip usually drops towards the floor. The latter can cause problems as it can be easy to hit your music stand with the bow when transitioning if you do not have it positioned carefully. Also it is easier to hit the bow against the side of the bass - this is a particular problem when using amplification (clunk!!).
That's why Simandl put that exercise in the back half of book I where you have to switch from pizz to arco for two eighth notes and then switch back.
French and German both have their pros and cons but I personally favor the German. I played with the French when I first started and I didn't have any specific problem. However, when I discovered the German bow, I loved the feel of it. I thought that it gave me a fuller sound especially on the E string. I still play the French bow and but after I discovered the German bow, I noticed that the French bow puts a bit more strain in my hand. I think the German bow grip is harder to learn, though. But if you learn how to hold the German bow right, it'll give you a great sound (depending on how you play) and take pressure off of your hand.
Gah, I'm bow shopping now. Started with French, but switched to german. I then bought a stick from a TBDBer which was a french stick with a german grip. Just made things even more confusing. 
Thinking about getting a Finale bow now. One thing nobody has kinda mentioned is that despite being more ergonomic, yes it uses bigger muscles. Despite my pittance level of arco, I feel that it's easier to coax out a nuanced tone with French grip. Sensitivity is much more inuitive with the French grip. I think I'm just going to go for the French grip and maybe get some french lessons from someone. I'll check out the videos already mentioned.
Thinking about getting a Finale bow now. One thing nobody has kinda mentioned is that despite being more ergonomic, yes it uses bigger muscles. Despite my pittance level of arco, I feel that it's easier to coax out a nuanced tone with French grip. Sensitivity is much more inuitive with the French grip. I think I'm just going to go for the French grip and maybe get some french lessons from someone. I'll check out the videos already mentioned.
When I was taking classical bass lessons, I was encouraged to learn to use both German and French...and so I use both. I've received instruction from 3 bassists so far, and they all appeared very capable with both types of bow.
Especially when I started using the bow, I preferred German. I still like German a lot, but now that I have a little more skill I have begun to enjoy the French bow quite a bit also.
If anyone ever gets to check out Paul Ellison it's a pretty cool thing to see. I've watched him swap his grip between French and German quite a bit using the same bow on the same tune. Makes sense that doing such a thing be acceptable when one considers the various strokes we have to learn (not to mention the various pizz techniques we also have to learn).
Especially when I started using the bow, I preferred German. I still like German a lot, but now that I have a little more skill I have begun to enjoy the French bow quite a bit also.
If anyone ever gets to check out Paul Ellison it's a pretty cool thing to see. I've watched him swap his grip between French and German quite a bit using the same bow on the same tune. Makes sense that doing such a thing be acceptable when one considers the various strokes we have to learn (not to mention the various pizz techniques we also have to learn).
I think it's terribly misleading to tell people that French involves the "small muscles of the hand" whereas German uses the larger ones of the shoulder and back. I play French, and had horrible tension problems in my right hand until the cello teacher here pointed out that I was trying to do everything with my hand.
In truth, the main muscles you use for arco playing are always the shoulder and back muscles plus arm weight. All of your bow movement should come from there. Otherwise you'll have pain and cramps no matter which style of bow you use.
In truth, the main muscles you use for arco playing are always the shoulder and back muscles plus arm weight. All of your bow movement should come from there. Otherwise you'll have pain and cramps no matter which style of bow you use.
Once I was taught the correct fundamentals of bowing it didn't matter which bow I used. They both sound like me. It came down to what was more comfortable. For me that's the French bow.
Man, that was lovely - do you know what transcription he was playing from? Looks like quite a workout, especially that trilled chord at the end! I know I'm a complete beginner, but this gives me something to aim for - I love that suite movement (learned it on the marimba once).
Yeah, that was very nice playing! Thanks for the link. I started out on German and studied under four teachers with it then when I studied at university, my professor switched me to French for the Rabbath/Vance method. I have been playing mainly French since then but I am trying to bring the German back in and get it up to the level I play at with French. I think being proficient with both is a great challenge and opens up many options.
I've observed that French or German preference seem to be related to how a given person holds a pencil or fork most naturally. Not scientific, but pretty accurate, in my 15 years or so of observation. My wife plays French and I play German, and we hold things differently. She holds things in her right hand overhand and I tend to tilt my wrist upwards and support things more. It's pretty subtle, but since I've been asking bassists to show me how they hold a pencil or a fork, I've found the results to be pretty consistent.
I spent a few years learning French because my teacher played French, but when I tried German it was immediately, obviously better for my hand, and my playing improved dramatically.
I've had students for whom the opposite was true, and now believe that it has more to do with physical cultural habits than with the bow itself.
I spent a few years learning French because my teacher played French, but when I tried German it was immediately, obviously better for my hand, and my playing improved dramatically.
I've had students for whom the opposite was true, and now believe that it has more to do with physical cultural habits than with the bow itself.
I'm just starting out with the bow and picked up a French bow because that is all they had. I'm self teaching at this point and have learned a lot from this forum as well as just playing and watch some videos as well. I'm an electric player for a long time and actually picked up an NS just to learn to bow because I keep hearing cello like lines in the music I'm playing and am leaning thatchy strongly. Things I've learned so far playing French. German seems like it will be more comfy for me as I've done both grips on the French stick and agree with certain strings are easier or more comfortable with the different grips. I have some pain from gripping way too tight and have noticed that flow comes better with a lighter grip. I get pain from squeezing too tightly but also because my right thumb was dislocated over 30 years ago and has about a 15 degree angle to it compared to the left. Hence the ease in a German type grip. I've read of the tubing for comfort but would like to see a photo of how that is placed if anyone would mind posting that. I just got a tub of Pop's today and it way more drippy and softer than the Petz's #3 I started out with. I'm in sunny hot humid South Florida. Much more warm and dark, not as screachy!
Bow is all about feel. I was a French player then switched to German this year and haven't looked back since. It's all about feel. I wouldn't suggest a David Gage Bow. I've havent played/ heard a good carbon fiber bow yet.
I'm trying out German bows since I've developed problems with my right thumb. As a result of osteoarthritis, it is extremely hypermobile , which is a fancy word for wobbly, and it's getting harder to do many more mundane things, like opening jars, buttoning clothing, turning a doorknob, etc., let alone play the bass with some command.
I like the sound, which is brighter than my Siegfried Finkl french bow (one of the late Irv Nathanson's "war clubs"), and I like the feel of palm upward, which seems to put my shoulder in a better position. Maybe its my dance background, but to play in first position with German bow puts one's arms in ballet's fourth position. The feel is very much of the "frame" when dancing, so I feel left and right hand better integrated.
Now, two days in my right wrist is hurting. I think this was just overuse. I was so thrilled to get the bows and instead of my usual 15 or 20 minutes a day of playing , I put in a good hour.
Spiccato and the E string are challenging. I have good speed on the string, but just cannot get to off the string. Of course, this IS two whole days of playing the opposite bow.
What can I say? I am not ready to stop playing. Maybe a switch of bows, or switching between bow types, will give me a few more years.
I like the sound, which is brighter than my Siegfried Finkl french bow (one of the late Irv Nathanson's "war clubs"), and I like the feel of palm upward, which seems to put my shoulder in a better position. Maybe its my dance background, but to play in first position with German bow puts one's arms in ballet's fourth position. The feel is very much of the "frame" when dancing, so I feel left and right hand better integrated.
Now, two days in my right wrist is hurting. I think this was just overuse. I was so thrilled to get the bows and instead of my usual 15 or 20 minutes a day of playing , I put in a good hour.
Spiccato and the E string are challenging. I have good speed on the string, but just cannot get to off the string. Of course, this IS two whole days of playing the opposite bow.
What can I say? I am not ready to stop playing. Maybe a switch of bows, or switching between bow types, will give me a few more years.
i prefer German bow...and I have seen and heard people play either grip on a German bow: underhand German grip or overhand French grip... really it depends upon your personal goals and where you fall on the traditional/experimental spectrum. try both and see what suits YOU.
good luck and best wishes
good luck and best wishes
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