Fret Levelling - what am I doing wrong?

[bdplaid]

I'm relatively new to fret levelling, only murdering my personal basses for a couple of years. I've got most of the preferred tools, But I have a problem: I can level and crown the frets fine, but there is still fret buzz, which seems to come from the higher frets. I suspect I'm not levelling them "level," meaning that perhaps the higher frets are a little higher than the lower frets?

I've used a Katana understring beam as well as a flat beam. I don't apply much pressure to the beam. I use 320 grit. A fret rocker indicates no high frets.

My remedy, which doesn't really work, is to shim the neck forward. But I need to find a solution to my poor craftsmanship. Any suggestions? Thanks.

 

[JC BASS 91]

I have seen several YouTube videos where the person levels all the frets, then tapes off from the 12 fret up towards the nut to protect those, and then levels the high frets (13th and up towards the bridge) again to make them lower.

I'm not saying that's the correct method, but I have done that myself and received some pretty great results on getting the action low with no buzz.

 

[bdplaid]

I have seen several YouTube videos where the person levels all the frets, then tapes off from the 12 fret up towards the nut to protect those, and then levels the high frets (13th and up towards the bridge) again to make them lower.

I'm not saying that's the correct method, but I have done that myself and received some pretty great results on getting the action low with no buzz.

I believe that's called "fall-away," and I have tried it, with not great results. However, I'm not sure what the final angle of the fall-away should be, meaning how low the highest fret should be compared to the 12th fret.

 

[Square]

Yes, fall away. I learned this technique when I was building classical guitars. Since they have no truss rod the fret leveling strategies are critical.

I used this to great effect on electrics that I just could not get buzz free.

I usually tape frets 14 and below with Two or three layers of masking tape. The number depends on how severe I want the fall away. I then use a radius block with 600 grit paper to level the higher frets.

The trick is, keep one end of your block on the taped area at all times. This ensures that the block maintains the angle of the desired fall away. Use a light touch and work to keep the two ends of the block in contact ( one with the tape and one with the frets) on every pass.

Once that is done I remove the tape and apply a new single layer at frets 9 or 10 and below. Then repeat the above focusing on frets 10- 15 primarily. This makes the fall away less abrupt.

I don’t know if you do this but I always use a black or red Sharpie to color the crowns of the frets. This lets me quickly see where I’m removing material and ensures I do it evenly.

Best of luck.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

From what I’ve seen online, the amount of “angle “ on the fallaway is tiny, on the order of one or two layers of masking tape on the 12th fret to pick up the fret beam by that much, so it’s sanding”downhill” towards the top frets. I’ve fretted 4 basses now with various degrees of success, still struggling to get really consistent results. Any system where a sanding beam goes back and forth sands the frets at the middle of the neck twice as much, which is hard to get your head around. In that case the upper frets aren’t “high”, the middle frets are “low”. Have you checked to see if the fretboard itself is flat?

 

[bdplaid]

I don’t know if you do this but I always use a black or red Sharpie to color the crowns of the frets. This lets me quickly see where I’m removing material and ensures I do it evenly.

Yes.

Have you checked to see if the fretboard itself is flat?

Yes. And it's always a little wavy. Never perfectly flat from high fretboard to low fretboard.

Do you guys ever measure the height of the frets?

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I also built myself a knockoff version of the Stewmac fret leveling jig, which is supposed to compensate for the effects of gravity and any inherent weirdness in the neck under tension, but the results don’t seem any better than just flattening the neck and doing it the old fashioned way, so I’ve more or less given up on it except as a work stand while leveling. I looked at the Katana system too, but mixed reviews made me reconsider. I’ve watched literally 50 videos on fret leveling, and the lack of a really consistent, universally agreed upon technique is pretty frustrating for an amateur. Maybe Plek? Expensive, unfortunately, and also some mixed opinions, typical garbage in/garbage out concerns. It seems like accuracy in the .0001” range is pointless, since the neck probably moves more than that daily in response to humidity changes.

 

[bdplaid]

Maybe Plek?

I have a Sandberg which was Plek'd at the factory, which is the best playing bass I have. But the nearest Plek is 2 hours away and $200. Plus, I want to figure this out for myself.
I might have indicated that my results aren't horrible, but are less than what I want: low action with limited buzz.

 

[JC BASS 91]

...it's always a little wavy. Never perfectly flat from high fretboard to low fretboard.

This does not sound conducive to getting a good result, at least to me.

 

[MPU]

Do you level along the string paths? Does your crowning method leave an untouched ridge on the frets? I stopped using crowning file after I noticed that I accidentally filed the leveled surfaces when crowning. I use triangle file now to make sure I do not touch the ridge with files, just 800 or finer sand paper.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

In theory, a wavy board shouldn't matter if it's not too extreme, since you are leveling the frets, not the board, which tends to compensate for minor variations, but if it's dished in the middle, the upper frets will seem high. There's a whole thread devoted to the diagnosis and treatment of "ski jump", or "Fender Kink", or one of several other names, but it only tangentially addresses fret leveling technique. I'm sure it's been discussed ad nauseum in TB Luthier's Corner, but spread out over hundreds of threads and posts. What I'd really love to see is an in depth tutorial, by someone who really knows what they are doing, with repeatable results. Maybe that's tooo much to hope for on wood instruments that move. The only bass I've ever owned that was (is) absolutely trouble-free, with zero fret buzz and is absolutely consistent day to day and decade to decade is my Steinberger XP-2, which has a solid carbon fiber composite neck. It NEVER needs a setup (in fact the neck is non-adjustable, with a small relief cast into it) and it will stay PERFECTLY in tune for up to 6 months in the case, maybe more, that's just the longest I've left it. Wood isn't even close to being the best material for a guitar neck, other than the aesthetic considerations, which are valid. I love wood necks for the feel of them, it's just kind of ridiculous how many hoops we have to jump through getting a wood neck to stay how we want it. If anyone has a link to a fret leveling tutorial they consider really definitive, please post it!

 

[bdplaid]

Do you level along the string paths? Does your crowning method leave an untouched ridge on the frets? I stopped using crowning file after I noticed that I accidentally filed the leveled surfaces when crowning. I use triangle file now to make sure I do not touch the ridge with files, just 800 or finer sand paper.

I level the entire width of the fretboard. I try not to focus on any particular area.
As for crowning, I try to leave as thin a line as i can, but honestly i think most of the crowning files leave too much of a flat top on the fret. And, knowing that a man has to know his limitations, I don't have the skill to use a triangular file. I've tried it, and stopped quickly realizing it wasn't for me.

Crowning files could be a whole discussion unto themselves.

 

[bdplaid]

In theory, a wavy board shouldn't matter if it's not too extreme, since you are leveling the frets, not the board, which tends to compensate for minor variations, but if it's dished in the middle, the upper frets will seem high.

The wave in the necks I use, Mighty Mite, isn't too bad. A few thousandths variation at most. And I agree that the levelling should compensate for it.

There's a whole thread devoted to the diagnosis and treatment of "ski jump", or "Fender Kink", or one of several other names, but it only tangentially addresses fret leveling technique. I'm sure it's been discussed ad nauseum in TB Luthier's Corner, but spread out over hundreds of threads and posts. What I'd really love to see is an in depth tutorial, by someone who really knows what they are doing, with repeatable results. Maybe that's tooo much to hope for on wood instruments that move.

I followed that thread. @Bruce Johnson had many great things to say in that discussion.

The only bass I've ever owned that was (is) absolutely trouble-free, with zero fret buzz and is absolutely consistent day to day and decade to decade is my Steinberger XP-2, which has a solid carbon fiber composite neck. It NEVER needs a setup (in fact the neck is non-adjustable, with a small relief cast into it) and it will stay PERFECTLY in tune for up to 6 months in the case, maybe more, that's just the longest I've left it.

I have a Kramer that never needed anything. I had a Modulus that was just as stable. Wood is, wood.

 

[bdplaid]

My take on wooden necks is that the truss rod doesn't bow the neck at a consistently even rate along the length. The bow seems to be confined to the area that is north of the heel attachment point. Which makes sense, because if the neck heel was bowed, the neck would rock.

How I interpret that is that there needs to be two areas of levelling: One for the bowed area, and another for the heel area. It seems to me that the "flat"
heel functions as a defacto ski jump; it may not actualy be raised, but in relation to the bowed area and the straight string, the last fret is highest. I'm wondering if this is the problem?

 

[Square]

I level the entire width of the fretboard. I try not to focus on any particular area.
As for crowning, I try to leave as thin a line as i can, but honestly i think most of the crowning files leave too much of a flat top on the fret. And, knowing that a man has to know his limitations, I don't have the skill to use a triangular file. I've tried it, and stopped quickly realizing it wasn't for me.

Crowning files could be a whole discussion unto themselves.

This what I do as well. I also use two sized of crowning files, one wider than the other. I use the appropriate size and once I have just a thread sized sharpie line left I use the wider file to just kiss the very tops into roundness.

As to a wavy board. This is part of the material we work with. To a degree this doesn’t matter. As said above, we are leveling the frets. I have even leveled frets in a 9.5” radius when the original maple board was 7.25. This when the owner wanted the larger radius but didn’t want to disturb the original finish on the maple board. This was on a new fret job of course.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

Are you using a leveling beam or a radius block to sand the frets?

 

[60bass]

I'm relatively new to fret levelling, only murdering my personal basses for a couple of years. I've got most of the preferred tools, But I have a problem: I can level and crown the frets fine, but there is still fret buzz, which seems to come from the higher frets. I suspect I'm not levelling them "level," meaning that perhaps the higher frets are a little higher than the lower frets?

I've used a Katana understring beam as well as a flat beam. I don't apply much pressure to the beam. I use 320 grit. A fret rocker indicates no high frets.

My remedy, which doesn't really work, is to shim the neck forward. But I need to find a solution to my poor craftsmanship. Any suggestions? Thanks.

What's your neck relief, string height ,and are you matching the saddles to the neck radius? Too much relief even a little can cause buzzing up high. In a sense the neck curves too much causing the heel to be higher than it should be when the neck relief is off. I often start with no relief and start my setup from there. Raising the saddles to see if it plays clean. Many basses play great like that. If I can't get it that way I'll add relief but never more then .009 or .010 capo 1st fret, hold down at 17th fret and check at 8th fret. I use 5/64 th at the end of the neck as my target string height. For the nut depth measurement I use .020 to .022 from the top of the 1st fret to the bottom of the E string.

As mentioned a sanding beam tends to knock more off the center of the frets due to the narrow width of the beam and the radius in the fretboard. I will not sand as hard in the center to compensate for that. I also go from side to side too and swiveling the beam slightly diagonally to help even things out. It only takes a very minute amount of height difference to cause fret buzz. Fret rockers are great but not perfect. I have had it where a fret rocker seemed to be fine on it, but it stilled had a bit of buzz and when I actually measured the heights of the frets then I could easily see where they were slightly higher and that's what was causing the buzz. In that case, I just use some little strips of sandpaper on my fingertip and work the area of the fret where is a little bit higher checking as I go till it plays clean. Then I will crown it and Polish it. I sometimes do fallaway but if you've done everything correctly and the neck is good you shouldn't have to.

On Fender style necks whenever possible I remove the neck, tuners and nut so I can lay it flat on my bench after I've gotten the neck dead flat (or as close as it will go). Then I can run my beam the full lenght of the fretboard going past the nut and heel with each pass of the beam. Making sure every fret is equally levelled. Then re-crown and polish and hope for the best. If there's a tried and true no mistake method. I haven't found it yet LOL

 

[smart51]

On my current build, after levelling the fretboard I sanded in some fall away. That way after slotting and fretting, the fall away is built in.

 

[bdplaid]

What's your neck relief, string height ,and are you matching the saddles to the neck radius? Too much relief even a little can cause buzzing up high. In a sense the neck curves too much causing the heel to be higher than it should be when the neck relief is off. I often start with no relief and start my setup from there. Raising the saddles to see if it plays clean. Many basses play great like that. If I can't get it that way I'll add relief but never more then .009 or .010 capo 1st fret, hold down at 17th fret and check at 8th fret. I use 5/64 th at the end of the neck as my target string height. For the nut depth measurement I use .020 to .022 from the top of the 1st fret to the bottom of the E string.

As mentioned a sanding beam tends to knock more off the center of the frets due to the narrow width of the beam and the radius in the fretboard. I will not sand as hard in the center to compensate for that. I also go from side to side too and swiveling the beam slightly diagonally to help even things out. It only takes a very minute amount of height difference to cause fret buzz. Fret rockers are great but not perfect. I have had it where a fret rocker seemed to be fine on it, but it stilled had a bit of buzz and when I actually measured the heights of the frets then I could easily see where they were slightly higher and that's what was causing the buzz. In that case, I just use some little strips of sandpaper on my fingertip and work the area of the fret where is a little bit higher checking as I go till it plays clean. Then I will crown it and Polish it. I sometimes do fallaway but if you've done everything correctly and the neck is good you shouldn't have to.

On Fender style necks whenever possible I remove the neck, tuners and nut so I can lay it flat on my bench after I've gotten the neck dead flat (or as close as it will go). Then I can run my beam the full lenght of the fretboard going past the nut and heel with each pass of the beam. Making sure every fret is equally levelled. Then re-crown and polish and hope for the best. If there's a tried and true no mistake method. I haven't found it yet LOL

That was great. Now you're going to make me measure stuff...

 

[bdplaid]

On my current build, after levelling the fretboard I sanded in some fall away. That way after slotting and fretting, the fall away is built in.

Brubaker does that too, and is where I first learned of the term.