Fretless - to coat or not to coat?

[petermwright]

I have a Squier CV ‘60s fretless Jazz, and I’m trying to decide whether to coat the fingerboard (which is Indian laurel). Not to preserve it, just for the tone - I do love the mwah.

I use rounds, with SD Antiquity II pickups, and action as low as I can without buzzing, and I have decent technique (I believe), and I can get good mwah, but can’t help wondering whether a coated board would enhance it.

Anyone have any experience of the difference it makes? And whether what you use (epoxy, superglue, poly) makes a difference to the sound?

This guy used superglue and wasn’t impressed:



However, it looks like he’s using flats, and doesn’t sound like he’s favouring the bridge pickup, so what can you expect…

 

[llmk]

From my limited experience, I would say that action, neck relief, technique, strings, pickup/electronics, and EQ all contribute at least as much to the mwah as the coating of the fretboard. Are you satisfied with all these aspects of your bass? If not I would start by fixing them before jumping to coating the fretboard.

My only fretless is Cort B4 FL (rosewood/wenge neck) which has an uncoated fretboard and I get plenty of mwah out of it. The neck is very straight (but not completely, there is about half a mm clearance in the middle of the neck), the action is pretty low at 1.25mm on the A, D, and G and 1.5mm on the E. I use flats, Fender 9050L right now. When I was using GHS boomers and had an action at about 2mm on all strings, there was no mwah to talk about.

How straight is your neck? How high is the action?

 

[claudel]

I'm in the middle of trying to epoxy (MirrorCoat) coat a fingerboard.

It's a good bit of work. It's easy to screw it up in a number of ways.

I've found a couple so far.

If you do not dam the periphery adequately there can be a huge mess.

If you do not level the neck properly then there will be much sanding that could have been avoided.

If you pour too heavy a coat there will be much sanding that could have been avoided.

It can be easy to sand through, requiring much sanding that could have been avoided in order to start over.

Cathairs find their way to the fresh epoxy, as can dust and flies.

Many learning opportunities in this sort of process.

I learned why Thor charges hundreds of dollars to do it.

All & all I'm glad I'm doing it. I hope I like the way it sounds when it is finally finished.

 

[petermwright]

From my limited experience, I would say that action, neck relief, technique, strings, pickup/electronics, and EQ all contribute at least as much to the mwah as the coating of the fretboard. Are you satisfied with all these aspects of your bass? If not I would start by fixing them before jumping to coating the fretboard…

How straight is your neck? How high is the action?

Thanks - I am pretty happy with those things, yes. I have very much addressed all of those things before considering coating the board. Neck is not completely straight but fairly straight, action is not high. I don’t have measurements to hand but could check later. I do have decent mwah as it is, but it’s a question of whether a coated board would enhance it or not.

Edit: those measurements you gave - is that at 12th fret (as it were)?

 

[petermwright]

I'm in the middle of trying to epoxy (MirrorCoat) coat a fingerboard.

It's a good bit of work. It's easy to screw it up in a number of ways.

I've found a couple so far.

If you do not dam the periphery adequately there can be a huge mess.

If you do not level the neck properly then there will be much sanding that could have been avoided.

If you pour too heavy a coat there will be much sanding that could have been avoided.

It can be easy to sand through, requiring much sanding that could have been avoided in order to start over.

Cathairs find their way to the fresh epoxy, as can dust and flies.

Many learning opportunities in this sort of process.

I learned why Thor charges hundreds of dollars to do it.

All & all I'm glad I'm doing it. I hope I like the way it sounds when it is finally finished.

Will be interested to see whether you find you like the results.

 

[ThomasTronics]

I originally played this on the bare bubinga wood. I actually found the sound to dull and woody. I had a horrible experience with epoxy so i tried the super glue route.
10 coats, sanded with a radius block and then buffed it to shine. Sounds and plays great and was able to get the action a little lower.

 

[petermwright]

I originally played this on the bare bubinga wood. I actually found the sound to dull and woody. I had a horrible experience with epoxy so i tried the super glue route.
10 coats, sanded with a radius block and then buffed it to shine. Sounds and plays great and was able to get the action a little lower.
View attachment 5221287

Thanks - did the mwah specifically improve?

 

[llmk]

Thanks - I am pretty happy with those things, yes. I have very much addressed all of those things before considering coating the board. Neck is not completely straight but fairly straight, action is not high. I don’t have measurements to hand but could check later. I do have decent mwah as it is, but it’s a question of whether a coated board would enhance it or not.

Edit: those measurements you gave - is that at 12th fret (as it were)?

I haven't played the same bass before and after coating the fretboard, so I can't help with that. But yes, I measure the action at the 12th fret.

 

[claudel]

Will be interested to see whether you find you like the results.

Me too.

Probably be a month or so.

Waiting for the body from the painter...

 

[ThomasTronics]

Thanks - did the mwah specifically improve?

It was much nicer sounding had a better clarity to it. Little bit more top end brightness

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I've been building fretless basses for a long time, and I've written quite a few threads here on TalkBass about surfacing and coating fretless fingerboards.

Mwah is created by the combination of:

• Having the fingerboard accurately trued up along the string paths. A small relief curve, but no lumps or dips. This has to be done along the actual string paths, not just to a straight cylindrical or compound radius form. We go into this all in great detail on this classic thread: Even fretless fingerboard levelling tips
• Setting the action at just the right height, for your plucking style, so that there's no buzz when you pluck lightly, but a full Mwah when you pluck hard. That action height will depend on your own plucking technique.
• Learning to work with it. Learn how to adjust the volume of the Mwah effect by your plucking on each note.

Those things create the Mwah effect; how loud and soft it is, and how even it is up and down the fingerboard.

The Tone (the EQ curve and coloration) of the Mwah effect is affected by (in order of priority):

• What strings you choose
• The fingerboard wood, particularly the hardness of it.
• The overall stiffness of the neck and how it responds to the vibration of the bass
• A coating, if any, on the fingerboard.

To answer your specific question, putting a hard coating on a fretless fingerboard will change the tone of the Mwah effect by making the high end clearer and cleaner. It doesn't necessarily make the high end louder, in comparison to the mids and lows. But you can hear the fine jingles better.

The harder the coating is, the more you'll make the high end clearer. Marine epoxy and oil/poly finishes won't do very much, because they aren't much harder than ebony. Hard epoxies and CA glues are somewhat harder, and will add some high end clarity. Hard polyester, particularly Gel-Coat polyester, will give you the most effect.

Those hard coatings are a lot of work to put on, and the coating itself has to be accurately trued up and polished to get the good Mwah effect. And that is a lot of work.

If you are getting a decent Mwah on the bass now, and you just want the Mwah tone to be brighter, it will be a lot less work to experiment with brighter strings. Nastier roundwounds.

 

[petermwright]

I've been building fretless basses for a long time, and I've written quite a few threads here on TalkBass about surfacing and coating fretless fingerboards.

Mwah is created by the combination of:

• Having the fingerboard accurately trued up along the string paths. A small relief curve, but no lumps or dips. This has to be done along the actual string paths, not just to a straight cylindrical or compound radius form. We go into this all in great detail on this classic thread: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/ev...rd-levelling-tips.905673/page-2#post-13024842
• Setting the action at just the right height, for your plucking style, so that there's no buzz when you pluck lightly, but a full Mwah when you pluck hard. That action height will depend on your own plucking technique.
• Learning to work with it. Learn how to adjust the volume of the Mwah effect by your plucking on each note.

Those things create the Mwah effect; how loud and soft it is, and how even it is up and down the fingerboard.

The Tone (the EQ curve and coloration) of the Mwah effect is affected by (in order of priority):

• What strings you choose
• The fingerboard wood, particularly the hardness of it.
• The overall stiffness of the neck and how it responds to the vibration of the bass
• A coating, if any, on the fingerboard.

To answer your specific question, putting a hard coating on a fretless fingerboard will change the tone of the Mwah effect by making the high end clearer and cleaner. It doesn't necessarily make the high end louder, in comparison to the mids and lows. But you can hear the fine jingles better.

The harder the coating is, the more you'll make the high end clearer. Marine epoxy and oil/poly finishes won't do very much, because they aren't much harder than ebony. Hard epoxies and CA glues are will add some high end clarity. Hard polyester, particularly Gel-Coat polyester, will give you the most effect.

Those hard coatings are a lot of work to put on, and they have to be accurately trued up and polished to get the good Mwah effect. And that is a lot of work.

If you are getting a decent Mwah on the bass now, and you just want the Mwah tone to be brighter, it will be a lot less work to experiment with brighter strings. Nastier roundwounds.

Thank you Bruce, very helpful. I’m currently using Rotosound Swingbass 66, 40-100. Are there nastier ones I could use?

Your first point about having the fingerboard trued up with no lumps or dips - presumably that’s because lumps will mean you need the action higher to avoid buzzing, and dips will mean individual notes lacking in mwah because of less contact with the board?

To your point about the effect on the high end. I should say that I do roll the tone off quite a bit. I can’t stand the clicky scratchy high frequencies, so I set it just high enough to keep the midrange growl but no more. That being the case, would I be filtering out the effects of the coated board?

Also interesting what you say about marine epoxy. Isn’t that what Jaco used?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Thank you Bruce, very helpful. I’m currently using Rotosound Swingbass 66, 40-100. Are there nastier ones I could use?

Your first point about having the fingerboard trued up with no lumps or dips - presumably that’s because lumps will mean you need the action higher to avoid buzzing, and dips will mean individual notes lacking in mwah because of less contact with the board?

To your point about the effect on the high end. I should say that I do roll the tone off quite a bit. I can’t stand the clicky scratchy high frequencies, so I set it just high enough to keep the midrange growl but no more. That being the case, would I be filtering out the effects of the coated board?

Also interesting what you say about marine epoxy. Isn’t that what Jaco used?

Truing up the fingerboard makes the Mwah even and consistent on any note and sliding between them. An uneven fingerboard means the Mwah gets louder and softer or cuts in and out at places.

If you don't like the scratchy high end stuff (I don't either!) then you'd be wasting your money/effort putting a coating on the fingerboard. I personally love the Mwah of flatwounds on a trued-up uncoated ebony fingerboard. The deep low and rich midrange buzz of a really good upright bass player. I'm not into that slide guitar sound on a bass.

Jaco used an old type of epoxy that isn't made any more. I forget the name. It was harder than modern marine epoxies, like West Systems and System Three, but not as hard as polyester. He wanted that high end zing. A big part of his musical style.

If you want to do the Jaco sound, I recommend that you have your fingerboard accurately trued up, then sprayed by a pro with polyester Gel-Coat. That'll get you that Slide Bass sound.

Or you can put a glass tube on one finger and not even press the string down......

 

[Lo-E]

I’ll agree with everything Bruce said.

I’ve owned a lot of fretless basses. I’ve played a lot more. I use rounds. The only coated board I ever owned was one I had coated by a local luthier (polyester). It was…. fine. As Bruce said, the tone was brighter. That was the only change.

In my experience, mwah is affected by:
Technique
Action height
Technique
Truss rod adjustment
Technique
Fingerboard material
Technique
Electronics
Technique

I think you get the idea.

 

[JRA]

the only coated fingerboards i've owned are what i believe to be polyurethane coated maple boards. as bruce suggested there is a clarity to the high end, especially the attack, if you want it (via technique).

IME, there is not a great difference among all the various fingerboard options if the rest of the variables (truing, strings, technique, EQ) are dealt with successfully, but folks can be picky about some things, and maybe a fb coating would better float your boat.

good luck with the coating if you decide to pursue!

 

[petermwright]

Thanks for your help everybody, much appreciated.

 

[rojo412]

I just did a fretless conversion with West Marine epoxy:

After the whole process, I can say that my personal feeling is, it's a HUGE PITA to keep it perfectly flat after the epoxy. I did many coats and that was mainly due to the need for re-doing areas where it sanded through to the wood.

Personally, I think the epoxy as a pore filler material is great. And if you have the patience to go above and beyond that, more power to you. But if I did this again, I'd be less concerned with making it a coating, to be honest. I'd get it to fill the pores well, true it up completely flat, then buff the wood and filled areas to this kind of shine and call it a day.

And if I'm being truthful, for any further commissioned work for fretless conversion myself, I'd almost be more inclined to replace a fingerboard. I feel like the effort I put forth (YMMV) was enough to where I should have attempted that to begin with because the end result could be more controlled and look better. Again, that may just be me. But doing this kind of conversion was way more effort than I initially quoted the guy for and I don't look forward to doing it again.

Sounds and feels great though! These are nickel rounds, FWIW.
Here's some sound clips. One is through my Peavey MK VIII and Ampeg 410, the other is through a Roland JC77 guitar amp (Best. Chorus. Ever!).
(please excuse the wrong notes, too, I was just noodling for sound samples)

 

[zombywoof5050]

Jaco used an old type of epoxy that isn't made any more. I forget the name. It was harder than modern marine epoxies, like West Systems and System Three, but not as hard as polyester. He wanted that high end zing. A big part of his musical style.

Jaco stated in an interview that he used Pettit PolyPoxy.

40 years ago, armed with this knowledge (about what exactly Jaco used), I set about doing the board of my Fender fretless Precision (rosewood). The board was badly worn when I bought the bass at a pawn shop, so I had a local luthier replane/radius it for me. Then I obtained some Pettit PolyPoxy (just like Jaco used!…lol), and without any prior knowledge or asking any advice from anyone, I coated it myself. I remember putting masking tape around the edge to keep it from dripping off, and then sanded it to make it as smooth as I could. It actually came out not too bad. It really wasn’t smart of me to do it myself totally winging it, but I was young and dumb. I don’t know how well it lasted, because I sold the bass not long after that when I got my fretless Wal.

Someone here on TalkBass mentioned just recently that he was going to purchase the bass (I knew by the serial number he posted of it), but from the pictures he posted it had been refinished white (from its original sunburst) and the fingerboard coating that I had applied was removed. Haven’t seen a new posting from the TB’er since he asked about it a few months ago, but would’ve loved to hear about it.

Anyway, sorry for rambling, started off just to inform what coating Jaco said he used, then got carried away, lol.

 

[petermwright]

I just did a fretless conversion with West Marine epoxy:

View attachment 5222412
View attachment 5222411
View attachment 5222413

After the whole process, I can say that my personal feeling is, it's a HUGE PITA to keep it perfectly flat after the epoxy. I did many coats and that was mainly due to the need for re-doing areas where it sanded through to the wood.

Personally, I think the epoxy as a pore filler material is great. And if you have the patience to go above and beyond that, more power to you. But if I did this again, I'd be less concerned with making it a coating, to be honest. I'd get it to fill the pores well, true it up completely flat, then buff the wood and filled areas to this kind of shine and call it a day.

And if I'm being truthful, for any further commissioned work for fretless conversion myself, I'd almost be more inclined to replace a fingerboard. I feel like the effort I put forth (YMMV) was enough to where I should have attempted that to begin with because the end result could be more controlled and look better. Again, that may just be me. But doing this kind of conversion was way more effort than I initially quoted the guy for and I don't look forward to doing it again.

Sounds and feels great though! These are nickel rounds, FWIW.
Here's some sound clips. One is through my Peavey MK VIII and Ampeg 410, the other is through a Roland JC77 guitar amp (Best. Chorus. Ever!).
(please excuse the wrong notes, too, I was just noodling for sound samples)

Thanks for sharing your experience. Based on what's been said on this thread, I'm thinking I won't coat it.

This thread has also brought up another issue I have with this bass, in that it's difficult to get it to maintain the neck relief I want. I measured the action again, and it's higher than it was last time I did a setup on it. So I tightened the truss rod again on Monday, got it nearly straight. Then checked again yesterday, and more relief had crept in, so did the same again. Checked it again this morning - same thing. More relief crept in overnight. This is much more important than whether or not to coat, I'm thinking!