From Combo to Head and Cabinet. Need some advice.

[J_Bass]

Hello guys,

Last year I was able to buy the basses that I always wanted. I now have a Fender Precision, a Fender Jazz, a Fender Acoustic, a Maruszczyk Fretless, an Ibanez Semi-Hollow 5 strings, a Hamer Cruise (first bass, don't want to sell it) and a double bass, for which I am taking lessons for and loving it.

I have a Zoom B3N for effects, I don't use the amp or speakers modulations.

I have on the way an Apogee Duet Firewire, which I got a good deal used. I would like the amp to be able to connect to the Apogee, so I can record the exact sound that comes out of the amp.



So, now I am thinking it's time to upgrade my amp. I have a combo from Ashdown, the MAG 300 EVO II. I like the amp, but I want something better, so I'm trying to sell it.

I want something that allows me to extract the sound from all my passive basses (only the Ibanez is active) and to amplify my double bass in the future, if needed. To adjust some tones, but with just a few buttons to adjust, I don't like to have too many variables.

I was thinking of buying the Fender Rumble 500 combo at 585 euros.

But an opportunity has appeared. I can buy a Phil Jones d400 head used but in very good condition for 400 euros. I found a new one that I would have to order from England for 580 euros.

I would have to buy a cabinet and I was thinking of the Phil Jones C4. I can buy the cabinet for 400 euros. The C8 just seems to much for me. I play mostly at home and occasionally with one or two guitars, voice and drums.


So, I would have a Phil Jones d400 with a c400 for 800 euros.


What do you guys think? Is this a good move? A good deal? Will I notice improvement?

Are there any alternatives of similar quality and ease to use for 800 euros?



Thanks for your help.

 

[ahbass2500]

Saw your post on the PJB club. I will not be much help as I have not tried the Compact 4 or the D400. I recently purchased a Quilter Bass Block 800 and Phil Jones Compact 8. I absolutely love the cabinet for what it is worth. I think you may have a hard time getting input from people with what you have posted here. What do you hope to get out of your next amp? People certainly like the D400 and C4, but that does not mean that you will like it. I see some goals (which I will address below), but a lot of amps could achieve those goals. Did anything draw you to the D400/C4 other than finding a decent deal on one?

For the goals I do see in your post:
- D400 has a pre/post EQ direct out. Should work fine for basic recording if you do not want to mic the setup.
- Phil Jones stuff is popular in the double bass community. Should work great if you decide to amplify the double.
- Limited adjustability... PJB is not the most complicated or the least. If you truly hate amplifier controls (like I do), maybe look at the Quilter Bass Block. It has gain, two tone knobs, and volume. However, you would lose the pre/post EQ out option with this head. It has an out, but it is always post.
- Output: The D400/C4 should be fine for home practice and smaller band use. For anything beyond that, you might want to add another C4. It seems most PJB Compact cabinet owners run a single C4, a pair of C4s, a single C8, or a pair of C8s depending on their output needs. There are even a few C4 with C8 users out there. If I ever add another it will be a second C8.

What I am not getting from your post is what kind of sound you are after. IMO the D400/C4 will not sound all that similar to the Fender Rumble 500 you mentioned. I think you will definitely prefer one over the other. Hard to say which given your post. I do see for sound that you want an amp that will extract sound from your basses. However, I am not sure what that means. All amps do that, but with varying results.

Note that I am not intending to be critical of you with my comments. I have definitely bought gear without really thinking about what I wanted. It ends up being a coin toss. I have kept about half of the gear I did this with. I have sold or will be selling the other half.

For what it is worth.... Based on my limited experience with PJB gear and what I get out of your post or can guess at... I think you would like the D400/C4. However, I have been wrong before. I have also seen people that seem like they would be happy PJB owners sell the stuff because they did not like it.

 

[J_Bass]

Saw your post on the PJB club. I will not be much help as I have not tried the Compact 4 or the D400. I recently purchased a Quilter Bass Block 800 and Phil Jones Compact 8. I absolutely love the cabinet for what it is worth. I think you may have a hard time getting input from people with what you have posted here. What do you hope to get out of your next amp? People certainly like the D400 and C4, but that does not mean that you will like it. I see some goals (which I will address below), but a lot of amps could achieve those goals. Did anything draw you to the D400/C4 other than finding a decent deal on one?

For the goals I do see in your post:
- D400 has a pre/post EQ direct out. Should work fine for basic recording if you do not want to mic the setup.
- Phil Jones stuff is popular in the double bass community. Should work great if you decide to amplify the double.
- Limited adjustability... PJB is not the most complicated or the least. If you truly hate amplifier controls (like I do), maybe look at the Quilter Bass Block. It has gain, two tone knobs, and volume. However, you would lose the pre/post EQ out option with this head. It has an out, but it is always post.
- Output: The D400/C4 should be fine for home practice and smaller band use. For anything beyond that, you might want to add another C4. It seems most PJB Compact cabinet owners run a single C4, a pair of C4s, a single C8, or a pair of C8s depending on their output needs. There are even a few C4 with C8 users out there. If I ever add another it will be a second C8.

What I am not getting from your post is what kind of sound you are after. IMO the D400/C4 will not sound all that similar to the Fender Rumble 500 you mentioned. I think you will definitely prefer one over the other. Hard to say which given your post. I do see for sound that you want an amp that will extract sound from your basses. However, I am not sure what that means. All amps do that, but with varying results.

Note that I am not intending to be critical of you with my comments. I have definitely bought gear without really thinking about what I wanted. It ends up being a coin toss. I have kept about half of the gear I did this with. I have sold or will be selling the other half.

For what it is worth.... Based on my limited experience with PJB gear and what I get out of your post or can guess at... I think you would like the D400/C4. However, I have been wrong before. I have also seen people that seem like they would be happy PJB owners sell the stuff because they did not like it.

Thank you, that was really helpful.

What I mean by "extracting" the sound from the bass is I want the amp to be as faithful to the original sound of the bass as possible. If it's a P bass, I would like it to reproduce the exact sound of the p bass, when the EQ is set flat. I am having a little trouble explaining this in English, sorry.

I saw a review video from a fellow TB'er about this setup on the double bass and I really liked it. Saw another one with electric basses and was also very pleased.

I just wanted to know if the deal is good and if this setup is appropriate for the kind of basses I own.


You were very clear and helpful, not criticizing at all. Thank you for taking the time to answer.

 

[ahbass2500]

What I mean by "extracting" the sound from the bass is I want the amp to be as faithful to the original sound of the bass as possible. If it's a P bass, I would like it to reproduce the exact sound of the p bass, when the EQ is set flat. I am having a little trouble explaining this in English, sorry.

I honestly did not notice that English was your second language (you are quite good at it), so no need to apologize there. I cannot comment on pricing, but I am confident that if your goal is to be faithful to the tone of the bass, this setup would deliver that. Hopefully someone who owns it can chime in. My comments are based on feedback I have heard elsewhere, my experience with the C8, and limited time with PJB gear in a music store when there was one near me stocking it a few years ago (meaning I am probably not the best one for advice on the C4/D400 specifically).

My other suggestion (which you may have already done) would be to read through the owners club thread. I am sure there is someone in there using this setup if I had to guess. They might be able to help or may have already posted something helpful.

 

[J_Bass]

I honestly did not notice that English was your second language (you are quite good at it), so no need to apologize there. I cannot comment on pricing, but I am confident that if your goal is to be faithful to the tone of the bass, this setup would deliver that. Hopefully someone who owns it can chime in. My comments are based on feedback I have heard elsewhere, my experience with the C8, and limited time with PJB gear in a music store when there was one near me stocking it a few years ago (meaning I am probably not the best one for advice on the C4/D400 specifically).

My other suggestion (which you may have already done) would be to read through the owners club thread. I am sure there is someone in there using this setup if I had to guess. They might be able to help or may have already posted something helpful.

Thank you. I had a look at you amp, the Quilter Bass Block 800 and I am curious to hear your opinion about it. Those two EQ knobs seem perfect for me!

On my Ashdown, I just use the EQ flat and run the built in Compressor (not very goof) and alternate between using the high or low (or both) buttons. The problem to me is, those are on and off switches. It seems that in the bass block those two knobs, depth and contour, do just that! That is exactly what I am looking for, the least amount of EQ possible, but intuitive and effective. How do you like it?

 

[ahbass2500]

I absolutely love the EQ section on the Bass Block. I have a fairly wide variety of basses that I use with it. I plug the bass in, tweak the two tone knobs a little and run with it (usually flatline or a few notches off). The setup certainly is not for everyone, but it has a pretty solid following (there is a Bass Block club on here). The Bass Block has limiting based on the gain settings. If you like using compression (as a compressor and not limiter... not sure how the Ashdown operates), you might want to add a compressor pedal.

Quilter's webpage has plenty of detail and video reviews. There was an in depth discussion of it on their page too that is difficult to find so I have included a link ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]). The other interesting thing about the Quilter is that there are a lot of people using them with the PJB compact cabinets, which is what led me to order a C8.

 

[jthisdell]

IMHO the hardest part you will face is amplifying the db, That benefits most from a higher quality hi fi type cabinet. What is your budget? You can buy a cheaper head and run it through a good cabinet and it will sound good but if you splurge on the head and buy a crappy cabinet it will sound, well...

I'd suggest researching over on the db side. FWIW I love my Bergantino cabs for both. The PJB gear is well liked on the db side but I have not had any experience. As you know, or will find out soon, it is hard to demo different bass amps but it is well worth the effort to take your gear and try things out.

 

[J_Bass]

I absolutely love the EQ section on the Bass Block. I have a fairly wide variety of basses that I use with it. I plug the bass in, tweak the two tone knobs a little and run with it (usually flatline or a few notches off). The setup certainly is not for everyone, but it has a pretty solid following (there is a Bass Block club on here). The Bass Block has limiting based on the gain settings. If you like using compression (as a compressor and not limiter... not sure how the Ashdown operates), you might want to add a compressor pedal.

Quilter's webpage has plenty of detail and video reviews. There was an in depth discussion of it on their page too that is difficult to find so I have included a link ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]). The other interesting thing about the Quilter is that there are a lot of people using them with the PJB compact cabinets, which is what led me to order a C8.

Yes, that is exactly what I am looking for. To have the amp give me the true and clean sound of the bass I am using and then just tweek it a little for each occasion. I also like the fact of the limiter being automatic. I am not the biggest fan of compressors because it seems to change the tone. At least the one in my amp does. Really leaning towards this amp, now. Thanks for introducing it to me.

IMHO the hardest part you will face is amplifying the db, That benefits most from a higher quality hi fi type cabinet. What is your budget? You can buy a cheaper head and run it through a good cabinet and it will sound good but if you splurge on the head and buy a crappy cabinet it will sound, well...

I'd suggest researching over on the db side. FWIW I love my Bergantino cabs for both. The PJB gear is well liked on the db side but I have not had any experience. As you know, or will find out soon, it is hard to demo different bass amps but it is well worth the effort to take your gear and try things out.

Thank you for the input. Yes, the double bass may be the hardest.

If I go with the Bass Block, that costs 555 euros, I would have around 700 euros for the cabinet. 500 euros would be great, but I can stretch it a little. I would like something that could use the full power of the amp (800watts, 4ohms?) or at least to get close to that. The Phil Jones c8 at 750 euros on Thomann would be my absolute maximum budget.

Do you guys have any recommendations?


Thanks again. This is really helpful.

 

[ahbass2500]

I am actually using the 8 ohm version of the C8. Bass Block seems like I have plenty of output and can push the speakers hard enough even with just 450 watts. Going the full 800 might let the speakers push a little harder. Volume increase would not be that huge with the 350 watt difference (around 2.5 db which is 20% perceived volume increase if I remember correctly). They used to make a 4 ohm version of the C8. I believe the one you are talking about is probably the C8 Lite which uses neodymium drivers and is only available in 4 ohms as far as I know.

What would two of the C4s run you? It would give you flexibility in your setup. Additionally you could always buy one C4 now and only buy the second if you find yourself needing it (could save some money if you never need it). I originally wanted to do two C4s, but opted for the C8 because I found a good deal on one. C8 is certainly compact enough to be easily moved around. C4s just give the added flexibility of one cab or two.

I will echo the previous poster. If you have the opportunity to try one first, you should do it. That said, I doubt you can find them. I could not find them here and had to buy to try (luckily I bought at a price where losses would have been minimal if I resold).

 

[J_Bass]

I am actually using the 8 ohm version of the C8. Bass Block seems like I have plenty of output and can push the speakers hard enough even with just 450 watts. Going the full 800 might let the speakers push a little harder. Volume increase would not be that huge with the 350 watt difference (around 2.5 db which is 20% perceived volume increase if I remember correctly). They used to make a 4 ohm version of the C8. I believe the one you are talking about is probably the C8 Lite which uses neodymium drivers and is only available in 4 ohms as far as I know.

What would two of the C4s run you? It would give you flexibility in your setup. Additionally you could always buy one C4 now and only buy the second if you find yourself needing it (could save some money if you never need it). I originally wanted to do two C4s, but opted for the C8 because I found a good deal on one. C8 is certainly compact enough to be easily moved around. C4s just give the added flexibility of one cab or two.

I will echo the previous poster. If you have the opportunity to try one first, you should do it. That said, I doubt you can find them. I could not find them here and had to buy to try (luckily I bought at a price where losses would have been minimal if I resold).

@ahadl2500, I will have to give you a gift in the end, man! Thank you, really! A c4 now will save some money, they are at 400 euros and I can always buy another if I ever need it!

Trying before buying is just impossible. I almost didn't find a P bass in my city. Luckily I found 2 in the same store, just by chance, and Ilthey were both great.

There simply is no stock for basses in the stores, here. I live guitar and piano paradise. No room for those big clunky things we love to play.

I got burned for a few times buying basses, but I can't fly to Germany or London just to try a bass. So it's youtube sound clips and my beloved TB for me.

I will follow your advice and go for the c4 cab. As for the amp, I think I will go with the one you have, the Bass Block, instead of the Phil Jones. I am sure they are both great, but I can't compare them both.

The EQ system of the Bass Block seems a perfect fit to me.

I for what you say and for what I heard on review clips, it's a good combination.

Would be nice to sell my Ashdown. Very difficult to sell bass related things here in Portugal.

 

[acid bass]

I don't know if I can answer how to best extract the sound of your bass with the EQ flat. But I owned the D400 for a short while and I did not love it. I like big low end with smooth mids that aren't too tinny (current rig is a Mesa D800 and Subway 115 for reference). I've owned several class D heads and the PJB was the most mid-heavy of the lot. I found it impossible to get enough bass for my liking and the mids were sharp with that heavy treble type clack to them. But if you like a lot of mids then this head will be great. Hope this helps.

 

[J_Bass]

I don't know if I can answer how to best extract the sound of your bass with the EQ flat. But I owned the D400 for a short while and I did not love it. I like big low end with smooth mids that aren't too tinny (current rig is a Mesa D800 and Subway 115 for reference). I've owned several class D heads and the PJB was the most mid-heavy of the lot. I found it impossible to get enough bass for my liking and the mids were sharp with that heavy treble type clack to them. But if you like a lot of mids then this head will be great. Hope this helps.

Thank you, it helps. Not a fan of clanky bass, I think I am set with the Bass Block, then. Thanks!

 

[coyoteboy]

Not to muddy the waters here, but I find the D-400 to be quite transparent, in a “no bad sounds” kind of way. The speakers I’m using even have dedicated midrange drivers. After I hook it up for a gig, I don’t have to think about the amp until I turn it off at the end. I switch seemlessly between bass guitar and electric upright bass, though I realize the DB is a different beast.

As always ymmv.

 

[acid bass]

Thank you, it helps. Not a fan of clanky bass, I think I am set with the Bass Block, then. Thanks!

I should be more fair, because the way I described it nobody would want the D-400. Because I don't like that sound I describe it as clacky or tinny. But someone who loves mid-range would probably describe it as bright or well-defined ("it cuts through the mix" is a common phrase for this). I like big bottom end and more subtle mids, which is why I moved from a 212 cabinet to a 115.

Hope that isn't confusing, just trying to be more objective.

 

[J_Bass]

Not to muddy the waters here, but I find the D-400 to be quite transparent, in a “no bad sounds” kind of way. The speakers I’m using even have dedicated midrange drivers. After I hook it up for a gig, I don’t have to think about the amp until I turn it off at the end. I switch seemlessly between bass guitar and electric upright bass, though I realize the DB is a different beast.

As always ymmv.

I should be more fair, because the way I described it nobody would want the D-400. Because I don't like that sound I describe it as clacky or tinny. But someone who loves mid-range would probably describe it as bright or well-defined ("it cuts through the mix" is a common phrase for this). I like big bottom end and more subtle mids, which is why I moved from a 212 cabinet to a 115.

Hope that isn't confusing, just trying to be more objective.

Yes, I understood and I am sure that I would be happy with either one of the amps. But those EQ settings are just what I'm looking for.