Frustrated on how to apply improv knowledge!!!!

[mambo4]

What would you say is a more "efficient" way to apply theory to soloing or improv?

thinking in terms of arpeggios, chord tones and "other tones" , and using your ear a little
without too much thoguht for scales or modes or finding "scales that go with" each chord.
especially useful when you only have 2 or four beats per chord to come up with something

A little after the fact analysis always reveals that you have ended up playing fragments from a mode or scale anyhow.
IMHO you end up in the same place with less effort and confusion.

 

[Bob_Ross]

thinking in terms of arpeggios, chord tones and "other tones" , and using your ear a little
without too much thoguht for scales or modes or finding "scales that go with" each chord.

Not sure if this is simply semantics, or perhaps a slightly more advanced grasp of chord-scale relationships, but fwiw a lot of musicians and music theorists will tell you that scales and/or modes are merely a convenient way to order and label the >>arpeggios, chord tones and "other tones"<< that make up a pitch collection.

iow, it's the same thing.

 

[mambo4]

to be sure, it is all the same things with different names.

the efficiency comes for not having to wrestle with a Invalid Link Removed when confronted by say a Gb9b13
you skip that and go straight to the chord tones.

to be clear I'm not arguing against learning that stuff.
I see too many people put up modes and some panacea for leaning to solo
and beginners delving into these chord-scale relationships prematurely
before they spent the prerequisite time learning the basics and sounds of chord tones and arpeggios.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

the efficiency comes for not having to wrestle with a Invalid Link Removed when confronted by say a Gb9b13
you skip that and go straight to the chord tones.

Mambo, if I could interfere in your discussion.
(P.S. Any IMPROVISER who is "confronted by a Gb913", usually, IMHO, is more or less prepared to encounter that kinds of chords.)

Could you tell me how does your "go straight to the chord tones" mix with the most fundamental principle or "Tension & Release".
Melody (USUALLY) does not follow those chord tones. Paraphrasing, embellishing, developing variations,"coloring..., improvising (!) of ANY tune/melody requires more knowledge than just "a la bassist's" chord tone approach.
An improviser must create (impromptu) some progressing Melody based on consonances and dissonances in relation to Harmony/chord progression.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Not sure if this is simply semantics, or perhaps a slightly more advanced grasp of chord-scale relationships, but fwiw a lot of musicians and music theorists will tell you that scales and/or modes are merely a convenient way to order and label the >>arpeggios, chord tones and "other tones"<< that make up a pitch collection.

iow, it's the same thing.

P.S. I've always wanted to ask you about your avatar.
Is it some abandoned hospital?

 

[Bob_Ross]

P.S. I've always wanted to ask you about your avatar.
Is it some abandoned hospital?

Abandoned factory in Jersey City, NJ. That was the cover picture from the CD I did with The Frightingales in 2009. I forget who the photographer is.

 

[mambo4]

Could you tell me how does your "go straight to the chord tones" mix with the most fundamental principle or "Tension & Release".

remember I said "chord tones and 'other' tones"
'other' tones = tension
chord tones=release
in the context of a single chord anyhow
how much tension/release in a larger context depends on the chords role in the phrase/tune

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Abandoned factory in Jersey City, NJ. That was the cover picture from the CD I did with The Frightingales in 2009. I forget who the photographer is.

Very cool!
Free Music Archive: The Frightingales
The Frightingales are drummer Rock Savage (ex-Barkmarket), bassist Bob Ross (ex-Debris), reeds player Jeff Hudgins (Debris, Mad Jazz Hatters), and viola player Dylan Fitzgerald. Tune in to hear their free improvisations hanging in the air somewhere between jazz and rock and roll.

Free Jazz and Free Improvisation: An Encyclopedia, Volume 1
By Todd S. Jenkins

From "Berklee Today"
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Whousedtoplay]

remember I said "chord tones and 'other' tones"
'other' tones = tension
chord tones=release
in the context of a single chord anyhow
how much tension/release in a larger context depends on the chords role in the phrase/tune

In order to better illustrate my point, I'd like to use a short paragraph from Dave Liebman's book, "Chromatic approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody."

 

[Bob_Ross]

Link Removed

That's not me.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That's not me.

I have rectified my mistake.
You are a true Pro Musician/bass player.
As always, I carefully read your very knowledgeable and informative comments.

 

[Bob_Ross]

I have rectified my mistake.

There ya go, that's me.
Usually people get me confused with the PBS painter, but I've also discovered there are 4 or 5 other bass players named "Bob Ross" vying for my album credits!

 

[mambo4]

thinking in terms of arpeggios, chord tones and "other tones" , and using your ear a little
without too much thought for scales or modes or finding "scales that go with" each chord.

I have been re-listening to an excellent Anthony Wellington Bass Clinic
and thinking about my comments. Anthony would probably point out
That when I say "efficient" I might just as easily be saying "lazy"

He so clearly demonstrates the advantage of having the full knowledge of all the scales , arpeggios, and modes.
And I can't honestly advocate an approach of pursuing less knowledge.

I do still think arpeggios and chord tones should come first, however