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Frustrated on how to apply improv knowledge!!!!

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Johnny StingRay, Dec 4, 2015.


  1. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    thinking in terms of arpeggios, chord tones and "other tones" , and using your ear a little
    without too much thoguht for scales or modes or finding "scales that go with" each chord.
    especially useful when you only have 2 or four beats per chord to come up with something

    A little after the fact analysis always reveals that you have ended up playing fragments from a mode or scale anyhow.
    IMHO you end up in the same place with less effort and confusion.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  2. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    Not sure if this is simply semantics, or perhaps a slightly more advanced grasp of chord-scale relationships, but fwiw a lot of musicians and music theorists will tell you that scales and/or modes are merely a convenient way to order and label the >>arpeggios, chord tones and "other tones"<< that make up a pitch collection.

    iow, it's the same thing.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  3. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    to be sure, it is all the same things with different names.

    the efficiency comes for not having to wrestle with a table of scales when confronted by say a Gb9b13
    you skip that and go straight to the chord tones.

    to be clear I'm not arguing against learning that stuff.
    I see too many people put up modes and some panacea for leaning to solo
    and beginners delving into these chord-scale relationships prematurely
    before they spent the prerequisite time learning the basics and sounds of chord tones and arpeggios.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
    Bob_Ross and Whousedtoplay like this.
  4. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Mambo, if I could interfere in your discussion.
    (P.S. Any IMPROVISER who is "confronted by a Gb913", usually, IMHO, is more or less prepared to encounter that kinds of chords.)

    Could you tell me how does your "go straight to the chord tones" mix with the most fundamental principle or "Tension & Release".
    Melody (USUALLY) does not follow those chord tones. Paraphrasing, embellishing, developing variations,"coloring..., improvising (!) of ANY tune/melody requires more knowledge than just "a la bassist's" chord tone approach.
    An improviser must create (impromptu) some progressing Melody based on consonances and dissonances in relation to Harmony/chord progression.
     
  5. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    P.S. I've always wanted to ask you about your avatar.
    Is it some abandoned hospital?
     
  6. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    Abandoned factory in Jersey City, NJ. That was the cover picture from the CD I did with The Frightingales in 2009. I forget who the photographer is.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  7. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    remember I said "chord tones and 'other' tones"
    'other' tones = tension
    chord tones=release
    in the context of a single chord anyhow
    how much tension/release in a larger context depends on the chords role in the phrase/tune
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  8. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Very cool!
    Free Music Archive: The Frightingales
    The Frightingales are drummer Rock Savage (ex-Barkmarket), bassist Bob Ross (ex-Debris), reeds player Jeff Hudgins (Debris, Mad Jazz Hatters), and viola player Dylan Fitzgerald. Tune in to hear their free improvisations hanging in the air somewhere between jazz and rock and roll.

    Free Jazz and Free Improvisation: An Encyclopedia, Volume 1
    By Todd S. Jenkins
    br3.PNG
    From "Berklee Today"
    https://www.berklee.edu/sites/default/files/fall1996.pdf

    br-2.PNG

    br4.PNG
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  9. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    In order to better illustrate my point, I'd like to use a short paragraph from Dave Liebman's book, "Chromatic approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody."

    db.PNG
     
  10. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
  11. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I have rectified my mistake.
    You are a true Pro Musician/bass player.
    As always, I carefully read your very knowledgeable and informative comments.
     
  12. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    There ya go, that's me.
    Usually people get me confused with the PBS painter, but I've also discovered there are 4 or 5 other bass players named "Bob Ross" vying for my album credits!
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  13. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    I have been re-listening to an excellent Anthony Wellington Bass Clinic
    and thinking about my comments. Anthony would probably point out
    That when I say "efficient" I might just as easily be saying "lazy"

    He so clearly demonstrates the advantage of having the full knowledge of all the scales , arpeggios, and modes.
    And I can't honestly advocate an approach of pursuing less knowledge.

    I do still think arpeggios and chord tones should come first, however
     
    Bob_Ross and Whousedtoplay like this.

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