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Double Bass Full Circle - position of wheel
- Thread starter brianh
- Start date
Sure. It's subtle but I do notice a difference. Have you tried it for yourself? Have you noticed a difference?
Joe
Joe
I have two basses with Full Circles on them. On one, the differences are subtle, but they are there.
On the other, the differences are huge. If the cable spot is facing directly toward the g-string or directly away, the volume drops in half. It;'s also very critical that the unthreaded hole is COMPLETELY perpendicular to the flat surface. I made the unthreaded hole slightly oversized for that reason. I think Fishman might have reccomended that.
On the other, the differences are huge. If the cable spot is facing directly toward the g-string or directly away, the volume drops in half. It;'s also very critical that the unthreaded hole is COMPLETELY perpendicular to the flat surface. I made the unthreaded hole slightly oversized for that reason. I think Fishman might have reccomended that.
I've been messing around with this and I do notice a difference. Mainly, if the wire is facing the 45 degree point (4 o'clock) the volume is about 2x a loud and it seems to be more focused. The action of my bass is always changing with the humidity changes where I live so I'm contantly having to move the wheel. It's kind of a pain that it changes the sound and doesn't help with the problems I've been having trying to amplify Eudoxa strings.
Zombie thread resurrection, but...
I've been wondering about this lately and noticing some subtle things going on with the Full Circle and wondering if anyone else had observations/ideas on these and related issues.
I agree that when the wire is coming off of the edge of the bridge foot, the sound is more direct and stronger/louder. I actually like this sound a lot, but there are a few subtle differences I am noticing:
- When I am playing lightly in any register, the sound is very natural and satisfying.
- When I am digging in with a lot of RH arm weight in the upper register, the pickup speaks beautifully.
- When I am digging in hard, the sound in the lower register seems to get a little more "hairy", as though it were on the verge of distorting without actually doing so.
The obvious reason for this could be the intensity of vibration produced by the longer and lower strings when played hard. I'd like to understand what's going on better though. Is this likely a physical phenomenon produced by driving the piezo crystals too hard? If so, is rotating the pickup to the middle more "ambient" position likely to help mitigate this? Or could this be an electronic/signal strength phenomenon that would be best mitigated by softening/reducing the preamp level and then bumping up the master to keep the same basic volume level? I tend to notice this on gigs when I'm digging in and there's a drummer playing, and would like to understand it better.
I've been wondering about this lately and noticing some subtle things going on with the Full Circle and wondering if anyone else had observations/ideas on these and related issues.
I agree that when the wire is coming off of the edge of the bridge foot, the sound is more direct and stronger/louder. I actually like this sound a lot, but there are a few subtle differences I am noticing:
- When I am playing lightly in any register, the sound is very natural and satisfying.
- When I am digging in with a lot of RH arm weight in the upper register, the pickup speaks beautifully.
- When I am digging in hard, the sound in the lower register seems to get a little more "hairy", as though it were on the verge of distorting without actually doing so.
The obvious reason for this could be the intensity of vibration produced by the longer and lower strings when played hard. I'd like to understand what's going on better though. Is this likely a physical phenomenon produced by driving the piezo crystals too hard? If so, is rotating the pickup to the middle more "ambient" position likely to help mitigate this? Or could this be an electronic/signal strength phenomenon that would be best mitigated by softening/reducing the preamp level and then bumping up the master to keep the same basic volume level? I tend to notice this on gigs when I'm digging in and there's a drummer playing, and would like to understand it better.
- May 6, 2003
- 5,272
- 160
- 64
- Disclosures
- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
That pickup is capable of lots of output range. The Stark E sitting on top of it can drive it into some heavy signal spikes especially when pulled hard. Its rare that the crystals clip, they only sound like that right before death. I wouldn't doubt the front end of the amp or even the overall amp could be clipping at those transients though.
I'd be sure the high pass filter is engaged and adjusted, insuring it's not low stuff overloading the amp. I'd make sure the input level isn't killing the front end on those transients by, as you suggested dropping the gain, and increasing the output.
That exact issue is why I still use that heavy speaker and powerful amp. If my hands are pushing hard I want my rig to be able to deliver without worrying about headroom.
If none of that works then the transducer may have some damage. They distort under heavy spikes when they are trying to fail. The very thing that makes them sound great, high tension, also kills them eventually.
I have noticed that the E string of the Weich EP set has almost as much bottom and push as the Stark E on my ply bass. It's odd, because it's so light. Overall the tension is to low for my amplified playing because the G string dies in the amp. It is challenging what I think about tension and amplified sound though.
I'd be sure the high pass filter is engaged and adjusted, insuring it's not low stuff overloading the amp. I'd make sure the input level isn't killing the front end on those transients by, as you suggested dropping the gain, and increasing the output.
That exact issue is why I still use that heavy speaker and powerful amp. If my hands are pushing hard I want my rig to be able to deliver without worrying about headroom.
If none of that works then the transducer may have some damage. They distort under heavy spikes when they are trying to fail. The very thing that makes them sound great, high tension, also kills them eventually.
I have noticed that the E string of the Weich EP set has almost as much bottom and push as the Stark E on my ply bass. It's odd, because it's so light. Overall the tension is to low for my amplified playing because the G string dies in the amp. It is challenging what I think about tension and amplified sound though.
This is kind of what I was wondering about. If that's the case, then 6-7 years between changeouts isn't a deal killer. I'm just wondering how to tell, though, with so many variables.
I'm also wondering if there just isn't a point past which the crystals in any transducer fatigue and start to distort. Realists definitely do, David Gage so much as said so. Since they work "under pressure" it follows that eventually that pressure would wear them out. Does this make sense to anyone else, after all, I don't design them I just play through them.
Ric
That's exactly what I thought when I read Chris' comments.
If you have a Fdeck's HPF-Pre, give it a try, even if your amp has a built-in HPF already!
- May 6, 2003
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- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
You can tell because it gets worse and worse until it sucks all the time, or just shuts off completely.
Of course if you readjust all the gain staging and it goes away then it was a user thing, not equipment failure.
Of course if you readjust all the gain staging and it goes away then it was a user thing, not equipment failure.
I'll be looking into this as time permits. At the moment, it certainly ties into the stuff I was beginning to explore in the "Lightness of touch" thread.
- May 6, 2003
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- Disclosures
- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
On my FC I don't hear anything different when turning the wheel or maybe it is so subtle that I don't hear it. It is supposed to sound different according to the manual. Is there something wrong with my FC?
My wire is always parallel to ground.
Do you have to turn the wheel outwards (so that the wire moves away from the bridge) or inwards? and how much?
Can someone describe the difference in sound between the parallel wire and the 'turned' wire?
My wire is always parallel to ground.
Do you have to turn the wheel outwards (so that the wire moves away from the bridge) or inwards? and how much?
Can someone describe the difference in sound between the parallel wire and the 'turned' wire?
Turns out the distortion I was hearing was a cable about to go bad - it died on the gig this weekend, and the replacement sounded fine. All of the stuff related to the "lightness" thread/concept still applies, though, because the distortion was replaced by a piezo "thunk" which wasn't very attractive either when I hit the low strings too hard..
The plot thickens: out of middle-aged laziness I decided to take the Shen SB100 from my office to the gig tonight (I had to leave for the gig from work). It's got spiro mittels and a stark E on it, and as soon as I plugged in I noticed that it was *waaaaaayyyyyy* louder through the amp than my regular bass. With the input gain set at high noon, the blue clip light on the compressor was blinking on every note of a walking line when I would dig in.
This obviously points to a failing FC on my main bass. I guess it's time to do the experiment. After 4 years of the same set of dominants and stark E, it's probably time to put some new strings on. Might as well swap out the pickup while I'm at it. Hopefully it'll last a few more weeks until i have time to mess with it. In the meantime, it's nice to have a viable backup.
This obviously points to a failing FC on my main bass. I guess it's time to do the experiment. After 4 years of the same set of dominants and stark E, it's probably time to put some new strings on. Might as well swap out the pickup while I'm at it. Hopefully it'll last a few more weeks until i have time to mess with it. In the meantime, it's nice to have a viable backup.
Sort of off topic: Finally changed out the pickup after watching the output diminish gradually over time, and having it cut out occasionally on gigs. The output on the new one is much higher, giving me a lot more options... and it doesn't cut out.
On topic: now that the new pickup is on, the position of the wheel makes a heck of a lot more difference. If I hit an open string, there's a noticeable surge in volume as the wheel rotates to the middle of the foot position. Definitely interesting, and I'll have to mess around with it to see what I like now. Also, the new pickup has four screws on the top, where the old one must have had the two sides of the adjuster wheel glued together. Maybe this version is more serviceable, as well. Hope I don't need to find out.
On topic: now that the new pickup is on, the position of the wheel makes a heck of a lot more difference. If I hit an open string, there's a noticeable surge in volume as the wheel rotates to the middle of the foot position. Definitely interesting, and I'll have to mess around with it to see what I like now. Also, the new pickup has four screws on the top, where the old one must have had the two sides of the adjuster wheel glued together. Maybe this version is more serviceable, as well. Hope I don't need to find out.
To add to the complicated formula: not only does the position of the wheel make a lot of difference, but I've been noticing that the string height does as well. My FC on the main bass had recently been quacking on several seemingly random pitches when I couldn't hear any acoustic difference on those same pitches unplugged. I took a vacation and then got sick on the way home, so after not having played for almost 2 weeks, I went to the gig just trying to survive. First set, every time I hit a B on the g string and several others, ducksville every time.
Since my hands were out of shape and I wanted to avoid injury, I dropped the adjusters somewhere between half a turn and a turn. In addition to about quadrupling the growl and sustain of the low F (which I had been missing), the pickup also sounded much more natural. I think the pressure from the string height was compressing the crystal, which was in turn compressing the sound. Anyway, after the lowering, the sound in any position of the wheel was warmer, looser, and more acoustic sounding, with none of the "thunk" that I was getting before when I'd pull hard. Makes sense, but I wish I'd thought of it sooner.
The bass is a mysterious beast...
Since my hands were out of shape and I wanted to avoid injury, I dropped the adjusters somewhere between half a turn and a turn. In addition to about quadrupling the growl and sustain of the low F (which I had been missing), the pickup also sounded much more natural. I think the pressure from the string height was compressing the crystal, which was in turn compressing the sound. Anyway, after the lowering, the sound in any position of the wheel was warmer, looser, and more acoustic sounding, with none of the "thunk" that I was getting before when I'd pull hard. Makes sense, but I wish I'd thought of it sooner.
The bass is a mysterious beast...
- May 6, 2003
- 5,272
- 160
- 64
- Disclosures
- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
String tension and break angle over the bridge are complicated bedfellows. The pickup does have a sweet spot where not enough tension sounds like crap, too much sounds like crap. Change one string to something else and it changes the whole thing, raise or lower your height changes everything. Crazy and not altogether predictable.
If you are having weather anything like me my bass swelled like mad with all the wet wet humidity lately. I had to screw in the the adjusters two full turns. They are down as far as they can go without touching and it's still stiff.
I thought I was psychotic and that my not playing much over the last 6 months has made me soft...maybe so but not that bad, my strings were up way past where I could have played them even when I was working every day.
Crazy beast these basses indeed.
If you are having weather anything like me my bass swelled like mad with all the wet wet humidity lately. I had to screw in the the adjusters two full turns. They are down as far as they can go without touching and it's still stiff.
I thought I was psychotic and that my not playing much over the last 6 months has made me soft...maybe so but not that bad, my strings were up way past where I could have played them even when I was working every day.
Crazy beast these basses indeed.
Agreed. With so many variables, it's hard to tell which is causing what.
We are - I hadn't thought of that, but you're right: the weather could have jacked things up above the "sweet spot" you described above.
Ayuh.
