Funk University Disappointment

[busta_bird]

Hmm. I started reading about how crappy FU was, now I'm reading about music origin.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Yeah, to be honest, that reply is kind of insulting. I don't really mind though, because, this is TB. It's an interesting topic and one that I'm willing to discuss, but 'research more' isn't much of a discussion.

Well I'm not here to insult any one. But to say that R&B music is influenced by European music is off the mark.


Origin and influences are two different things.


Most rhythms that are of European origin is for the most part stiff. How could some one who has a natural life in their rhythm naturally would even want to be influenced by a form of rhythm that is stiff and lifeless for the most part.

 

[NickyBass]

Well I'm not here to insult any one. But to say that R&B music is influenced by European music is off the mark.


Origin and influences are two different things.


Most rhythms that are of European origin is for the most part stiff. How could some one who has a natural life in their rhythm naturally would even want to be influenced by a form of rhythm that is stiff and lifeless for the most part.

I realize that you are not here to insult---so I deleted that post. I must have deleted it after you quoted it. It didn't add anything to the dialog, so I chopped it out. Sorry I didn't do so sooner.

How can a rhythm, in and of itself, be 'stiff?' Do you think all classical music is stiff? Can't blues music be performed stiff-ly?

Besides, it wasn't the European rhythm that influenced the music, it was the harmony.

 

[mulchor]

Hmm. I started reading about how crappy FU was, now I'm reading about music origin.

The FU part was mystifying.

If you personally don't learn a lot in the first month of a course, if you don't see clearly what the program of instruction is doing, drop it fast.

If you're running FU (which I don't think any of them actually posted here), make sure people feel like they get what they're after.

The mystifying part to me was that there could be any controversy in "if it's not working for you, leave."

 

[rnilson]

Well I'm not here to insult any one. But to say that R&B music is influenced by European music is off the mark.


Origin and influences are two different things.


Most rhythms that are of European origin is for the most part stiff. How could some one who has a natural life in their rhythm naturally would even want to be influenced by a form of rhythm that is stiff and lifeless for the most part.

Sorry,
From a debate standpoint your getting pounded here. You have yet to give any substantial fact in your argument. Unlike your detractors like Bongomania and NickyBass who have given verifiable facts to support their case. Less generalizations and more specific facts please.

And for the record African American Blues has a roots in West African music yes, more specifically Yourba Music (examples call and response, rhythms, blue note, sliding and bending of pitch) but it is influenced by European music (examples scale, form, and harmonies.) It doesn't matter if it is conscious influence or not, it is influence just the same.

 

[Brad Johnson]

You're mentioning our discussion on go-go as if it was a negative thing, which is unfortunate. A lot of music historians will point to New Orleans marching bands as an early influence on funk. European drum rudiments were an essential aspect of these marching bands and that influence extended to drummers such as Zig Modeliste and James Black.

I remember it going in circles, among other things.

 

[NickyBass]

Origin and influences are two different things.

Yes, but you said that Europe was neither an origin (which I agree with) nor an influence (which is where we disagree) of blues music.

I would argue that Europe has a rich history of harmonic and melodic music---and has been a large influence on a lot of popular music. Even Coltrane was studying Ravel and Debussey.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Sorry,
From a debate standpoint your getting pounded here. You have yet to give any substantial fact in your argument. Unlike your detractors like Bongomania and NickyBass who have given verifiable facts to support their case. Less generalizations and more specific facts please.

And for the record African American Blues has a roots in West African music yes, more specifically Yourba Music (examples call and response, rhythms, blue note, sliding and bending of pitch) but it is influenced by European music (examples scale, form, and harmonies.) It doesn't matter if it is conscious influence or not, it is influence just the same.

Then it should be relatively easy to cite the European influence on Bootsy on something like Sex Machine. Should be pretty interesting. Or examples of how someone like Billie Holiday's note choices and rhythmic patterns were influenced by European music.

I'm not saying either is impossible, I'd like to see an example of the lineage because so far I haven't.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I realize that you are not here to insult---so I deleted that post. I must have deleted it after you quoted it. It didn't add anything to the dialog, so I chopped it out. Sorry I didn't do so sooner.

How can a rhythm, in and of itself, be 'stiff?' Do you think all classical music is stiff? Can't blues music be performed stiff-ly?

Besides, it wasn't the European rhythm that influenced the music, it was the harmony.

Listen to Parliament and John Phillips Sousa. If there isn't a difference in feel, cool. A less regimented adherence to time.

 

[otis_thick]

I honestly believe that you can get more from youtube than any online school when it comes to technique. Theory and musical knowledge would come better with an actual teacher but technique, feel, can be developed through imitation and repetition. That's how I did it and while it could be better, I didn't have to pay a cent.

I agree with you...i think this is more about learning the Bootsy vibe and HIS philosophical approach to the groove ....he is showing you WHY HE plays what he does ....theory will give you the tools to describe what is being played but WHY it is played is A Whole Nuther THANG!
Its more about lettin you in on the recipe for Funk Gumbo and its secret ingedients!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Start with the scales they sing in. With the exception of occasional "blue notes", all of their songs are in European scales. Because that is the vast majority of R&B, I challenge you to point us to any examples of American R&B that are not in European scales. Again, setting aside the occasional use of blue notes--because in the African music that introduced those notes, the entire scale is different.

So scales trump what you do with them?

 

[rnilson]

So scales trump what you do with them?

Nope just an example of influence.

 

[NickyBass]

Then it should be relatively easy to cite the European influence on Bootsy on something like Sex Machine. Should be pretty interesting. Or examples of how someone like Billie Holiday's note choices and rhythmic patterns were influenced by European music.

I'm not saying either is impossible, I'd like to see an example of the lineage because so far I haven't.

I am about to log off for a few hours. Jauqo, I really do enjoy debating with you. Brad, I'd love to discuss this further, but I will leave you with this morsel:

There are alot of jazz standards, including alot of Billie Holiday's reproiroire were American popular show songs---which are directly influenced by European classical music.

As for Sex Machine, the answer is pretty complex, but you can trace it back to blues, which was influenced by European harmony.

Gotta run for now.......

 

[mulchor]

Yes, but you said that Europe was neither an origin (which I agree with) nor an influence (which is where we disagree) of blues music.

I would argue that Europe has a rich history of harmonic and melodic music---and has been a large influence on a lot of popular music. Even Coltrane was studying Ravel and Debussey.

I put it on the scale of things like the Greek & Roman alphabet and Arabic numerals. They were early and widespread.

European music, via missionary and colonization, influenced everything to the point of quashing almost all scales that weren't from the 12 tone chromatic. South Asia is one of the few places you can find music almost clean of European influence, with 22-note raga scales, Java's oddball scale...

As far as European rhythms being stiff, that really needs to be thought out better in order to make sense.

Again from an origin/influence point of view, I think it's more enlightening to think of the more immediate.

Just like with language, you can go all the way back to proto-indo-european... obviously all music came from Africa as that's where our primate ancestors originated. But that's not very helpful for tracing elements in music.

talkbass, we ought to toss in basso continuo, ya?

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I have stated where my stance is on this. And the naysayers have yet to show me an example of this music that is so heavily influenced my European music.


I have yet to hear any Edouard Nanny influence in the playing of James Jamerson.

 

[aborgman]

Then it should be relatively easy to cite the European influence on Bootsy on something like Sex Machine.

Sure.


Get Up (I Feel Like Being) a Sex Machine - Key Eb.

There you go.

It uses a European influenced key signature, in a European influenced scale, using European influenced harmony.

 

[bongomania]

I have stated where my stance is on this.

You have stated your stance, but you have utterly failed to support your stance in any way.

the naysayers have yet to show me an example of this music that is so heavily influenced my European music.

That's not true. We have pointed out repeatedly that the large majority of scales and harmonies used in American R&B are either purely European or modified European. There's no need to point out specific examples because this is true of like 99% of all American R&B. You want an example though, aborgman is right--that Bootsy song is in a European key with major and minor harmony--European concepts. I'll add that the lyrical phrasing is very much formed around the rhythm inherent to the words used in the song, which are in English. The phrasing is not what it would be if the words were in Swahili or any other African language.

I have yet to hear any Edouard Nanny influence in the playing of James Jamerson.

So you are willing to totally ignore the chordal/harmonic/arpeggio choices Jamerson made? Those are all based on European music.

Food for thought on the question of "stiff" versus "loose" rhythm: Looking at swing as an example of what's commonly associated with African-influenced rhythm, Ed Fuqua -one of the established pundits over on the DB side- insists that timing has nothing to do with swing. He says swing is 100% about note choice. He even wrote a whole book on that subject. Now, personally I happen to disagree with him--but do you?

 

[aborgman]

I have stated where my stance is on this. And the naysayers have yet to show me an example of this music that is so heavily influenced my European music.

Listen to the whoosh of the moving goalposts.

First it was "no influence"... and now it's "let's see where it HEAVILY influenced"

This a classic logical fallacy, commonly known as "raising the bar"

Example:

Bella Donna claims that Sybil Antwhisper, her room-mate, is not sharing the housework equitably. Sybil tells Bella to go away and itemize and record who does what household tasks. If Bella can show that she does more housework than Sybil, then Sybil will mend her ways. A week passes and Bella shows Sybil clear evidence that Sybil does not "pull her weight" around the house. Sybil (the advocate) responds: "That's all very well, but I have more work and study commitments than you do – you should do more housework than me... it's the total work of all kinds that matters, not just housework."

In this example the implied agreement between Bella and Sybil at the outset was that the amount of housework done by both parties should be about the same. When Sybil was confronted by the evidence however, she quickly and unilaterally "changed the terms of the debate". She did this because the evidence was against her version of events and she was about to lose the argument on the issue as originally defined. By "moving the goalposts" Sybil is seeking to change the terms of the dispute to avoid a defeat on the original issue in contention

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I have stated where my stance is on this. And the naysayers have yet to show me...

Grrr!!!



LOL. Sad and sorta funny at the same time, as I reflect for a moment on the entrenched, dogmatic posture taken.

Funk?
Rocco.
Larry.
Mark.
Verdine.
James.
Nathan.
Louis.
Listen.
A universe of knowledge of funk, all for a few bucks, if that.
That's your Funk University.

 

[N.F.A.]

I think that people, me included, were thinking that there would be more hands on material. (tabs, notation, licks, stylistic stuff) Up to now it has been mostly the philosophy of the genre and not the nuts and bolts. There are plenty of people on their message board that are happy with the material so far. As for me, still adopting a wait and see approach for a while longer..