JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Thank you.
Because it is simply not true. Tell me where blues came from and it's origins.
R&B singers were not influenced by European music.
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Funk University Disappointment
- Thread starter Johnius
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Thank you.
Because it is simply not true. Tell me where blues came from and it's origins.
R&B singers were not influenced by European music.
With any or all due respect:
Conspiracy theories and conspiracy-oriented mentalities masquerading as "history" perhaps. I mention this specifically due to the continual use of such terms as "factual", "lies" and "truths". Sorry, I don't care who you are, but no one person has can lay sole claim to these terms, and in this context. I don't see historians laying claims to what is "factual" and what are "truths". Doris Kerns Goodwin, as well as the bulk of historians in that noble profession, doesn't resort to such rhetorical chest-thumping regarding the validity of their work, and their findings. I think this characteristic that differentiates scholars and academics and their output from "internet conversations" and unacknowledeged/acknowledged arguments on the internet is worth noting and remembering.
Conspiracy theories and conspiracy-oriented mentalities masquerading as "history" perhaps. I mention this specifically due to the continual use of such terms as "factual", "lies" and "truths". Sorry, I don't care who you are, but no one person has can lay sole claim to these terms, and in this context. I don't see historians laying claims to what is "factual" and what are "truths". Doris Kerns Goodwin, as well as the bulk of historians in that noble profession, doesn't resort to such rhetorical chest-thumping regarding the validity of their work, and their findings. I think this characteristic that differentiates scholars and academics and their output from "internet conversations" and unacknowledeged/acknowledged arguments on the internet is worth noting and remembering.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
How can you say any thing? When you said your self that you are not interested in knowing the origin of things or how things come to be.
You even said that you didn't read the entire thread.
Then you want to discredit those who know, may want to know, or sincerely want to know.
Yeah, that post kind of surprised me.
By the way, lots of historians consider their notions of history and historical findings to be "fact". But of course, you will still find people who deny the occurrence of some of the historical events in question...
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Well, first off, the guitar, piano, double bass, harmonica and sax are all European instruments. Also, the basic harmonic structure of the 12 bar blues can be traced back to European harmonic theory.
No problem - I respect the fact that you put the information out there that you do. You obviously love music and want help others expand on their own relashionships with music.
Blues definitely has its roots in Africa, but it was also influenced by European music. The guitar itself is a European instrument. As far as I'm aware, harmony itself is a European "invention". R&B was influenced by church music, which was influenced by European gospel (listen to field recordings of Appalachian spirituals and you'll hear what I mean). There is a lot to be discussed here and I have to leave for a gig. Jauqo, if you want to exchange some info on the subject at a later time I'd be happy to.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
The blues roots are African. And that is my main point.
The Akonting which is a folk lute from Senegambia was used before the guitar and even before the banjo(which is a African invented instrument),
bongomania
Commercial User
Fair enough, but that is a very far cry from what you said before, that R&B singers are not influenced by European music. They certainly are. The scales they sing in are mostly European, and the harmonies are often European as well, and a large percentage of their phrasing is based on the rhythms of the English language (in America, anyway). I listen to ton of African music, from all over the continent, and I can clearly hear noticeable differences between West African roots music, and American music that has influences from both West Africa and Europe, and African music that has influences from both Europe and the Americas.
The roots are in Africa, no doubt, but there is some European influence as well. Would you agree?
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Bongo point me in the direction showing or indicating the influence of European music on the genre of R & B.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Yes
If you're talking about an influence on African American blues, then no.
And I am referring to the very inception of blues.
bongomania
Commercial User
Start with the scales they sing in. With the exception of occasional "blue notes", all of their songs are in European scales. Because that is the vast majority of R&B, I challenge you to point us to any examples of American R&B that are not in European scales. Again, setting aside the occasional use of blue notes--because in the African music that introduced those notes, the entire scale is different.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Ok let me clarify.
R&B is not influenced by European music simply because of the usage of scales that may have originated in Europe. Most R&B singers could care less about scales and that is one of the phenomenons of most R&B singers.
R&B singers main roots are in Blues. Where there was no need for instruments necessarily.
bongomania
Commercial User
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
bongomania
Commercial User
No man, that's a cop-out answer. You don't know how much homework I've done. Instead of telling me to "look it up", why don't you actually answer the question?
Which is it? Are you talking about African American blues music, or are you talking about the inception of the roots of blues music as it occured in Africa?
I'm not aware of any Akontings being used in African American blues, though I don't doubt that they were used in traditional West African folk music (which could be an influence on blues music.) I do however, see alot of European instruments being used in 'American' blues music.
Alot of 20th century music has influence from alot of different cultures. Obviously, for blues, the influence from Africa is alot more prominent than those of Europe---but to deny ANY influence is a bit bold.
I thought the American music scene came from work songs and spirituals. Work songs has room for various tribal elements, and certainly African. Spirituals are obviously European.
I think the beauty of the culture, not just music, is what happened after leaving Africa. There's basically no way to distinguish components that were contributed from different peoples, or even which region of the continent.
Break it into elements:
But I think the important part is that we're looking at a wonderful artform arising from the slave + African American culture.
R & B didn't come around until mid 20th century. You have to point to urban blues + gospel. Urban blues came from rural blues and jazz, which were themselves post slave-era developments.
So to talk about African versus European is really failing to give credit to the important American developments.
I think the beauty of the culture, not just music, is what happened after leaving Africa. There's basically no way to distinguish components that were contributed from different peoples, or even which region of the continent.
Break it into elements:
- call and response: I understand to be African
- counter point: European
- harmonic structure: European
- scales: European (altho it's hard to tell one pentatonic from another if you allow for drift in a note or two)
- rhythm: the world is full of duple and triple, and phrase structures follow people's breathing, but you really have to credit African or Caribbean influence
But I think the important part is that we're looking at a wonderful artform arising from the slave + African American culture.
R & B didn't come around until mid 20th century. You have to point to urban blues + gospel. Urban blues came from rural blues and jazz, which were themselves post slave-era developments.
So to talk about African versus European is really failing to give credit to the important American developments.
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