G&L L2500 micro-tilt feature...how to adjust properly?

[202dy]

How is it a simple thing to get even tension? We are talking about untrained people using a phillips screw driver. Clearly this system was a Flop and dumped by manufacturers.

It is a simple thing to twist a screw driver and estimate tension by feel. Your last statement did not say anything about untrained people using Philips screwdrivers. But even at that, the average person should be able to feel what it happening under their tool. If they do not have that ability they would be well advised to seek professional help with their instruments.

How is it "clear that the system was a "Flop" and dumped by the manufacturers"?

Please include data to support any assertions. Comments unsupported by data is how incorrect information gets in the public domain. Repeated enough times and the information becomes repair myth that does no one any good.

 

[FunkHead]

It is a simple thing to twist a screw driver and estimate tension by feel. Your last statement did not say anything about untrained people using Philips screwdrivers. But even at that, the average person should be able to feel what it happening under their tool. If they do not have that ability they would be well advised to seek professional help with their instruments.

How is it "clear that the system was a "Flop" and dumped by the manufacturers"?

Please include data to support any assertions. Comments unsupported by data is how incorrect information gets in the public domain. Repeated enough times and the information becomes repair myth that does no one any good.

At best Micro-Tilt is a shortcut to lowering each saddle at the same time. No more than that. But it adds the possibility of stripped screw holes. Without exact torque on each screw stability is jeopardized. It's hard enough to have a Setup last through seasonal changes without adding this unnecessary variable.
It's just so much simpler to adjust the saddles to achieve desired string height.

 

[joebar]

i love G&L but...

this whole micro tilt adjustment thingy is a giant slap in the face to NT instruments and just negated any benefit those guitars give

 

[202dy]

At best Micro-Tilt is a shortcut to lowering each saddle at the same time. No more than that. But it adds the possibility of stripped screw holes. Without exact torque on each screw stability is jeopardized. It's hard enough to have a Setup last through seasonal changes without adding this unnecessary variable.
It's just so much simpler to adjust the saddles to achieve desired string height.

It is correct to say that it is a simple matter to regulate saddle height by adjusting the saddles.

Shimming, or using a micro tilt neck change the geometry of the instrument. Regulating the saddles change the string height. These are two very different functions.

Please tell the forum how a micro tilt mechanism promotes the possibility of stripped screw holes. How would that be different from using a "Full" shim? Further, add to this how exact torque is applied to a metal screw in wood and how the stability of the joint is jeopardized if that torque is not applied with exactitude.

In temperate climates it is difficult for a setup to remain static through the changing seasons. This is why necks are shimmed, relief is adjusted, and string height is regulated multiple times a year.

 

[FunkHead]

It is correct to say that it is a simple matter to regulate saddle height by adjusting the saddles.

Shimming, or using a micro tilt neck change the geometry of the instrument. Regulating the saddles change the string height. These are two very different functions.

Please tell the forum how a micro tilt mechanism promotes the possibility of stripped screw holes. How would that be different from using a "Full" shim? Further, add to this how exact torque is applied to a metal screw in wood and how the stability of the joint is jeopardized if that torque is not applied with exactitude.

In temperate climates it is difficult for a setup to remain static through the changing seasons. This is why necks are shimmed, relief is adjusted, and string height is regulated multiple times a year.

The data you request does not exist. How many times can you screw and unscrew neck bolt with out damaging the Screw holes? Not a simple question is it? Of course not because each piece of wood has a varying hardness.
Add to that the variable of the person holding the screwdriver. One person may have a perfect feel for when the screw is tight enough without damaging the wood. Another may go"too far" and cause permanent damage to the somewhat fragile "Threads" in the neck. Also, The screws are being screwed into the neck at varying lengths based on the amount of Micro-Tilt being introduced. At whatpoint do ypu change the length of the Screws? As stated earlier it is much better to just adjust the saddles even if it take a few extra minutes.
I would venture to guess that Micro-Tilt was introduced as a time saver during mass production.

 

[202dy]

Of course the data exists. It is your job to find it. Assertions that have no data are merely opinion. Opinion without supporting data is worthless.

The micro-tilt mechanism was invented to eliminate shimming. In a way it was an attempt to make it easier for the uninitiated to make the change on their own. It certainly makes the process quicker for the tech. But as it required extra machining, it could never be asserted that it was a time saver on the production line. However, the mechanism is a rousing mechanical success. But it fell out of favor because Fender used it on their three bolt necks. Fender, during this time period was not producing the greatest quality. The neck pockets were over sized, probably due to poor machining techniques and the need to replace worn machinery and tooling. Necks slipped around in the pockets. Unfortunately, all of this happened around the time they went to the three bolt neck. The three bolt design got the blame. The micro-tilt mechanism was the baby that got thrown out with the bath water. But it had absolutely nothing to do with the mechanical problem of a loose pocket.

Interestingly, G&L, another Leo Fender company used the three bolt design with the micro-tilt in their first guitars. None of these guitars exhibit any of the problems that the Fender guitars did. A rousing success.

Changing geometry and changing saddle heights are two very different operations performed during setup. Geometry will allow for better range when changing saddle height. Adjusting the saddles may not be able to overcome geometry. Hence, shimming or utilizing a micro-tilt mechanism.

 

[joebar]

the problem I see with many basses is that they run out of saddle travel and bottom out often before a good action can be achieved'; this happens to incorrectly cut/shallow saddle slots. usually happens on the G saddle for some reason.

that's another story.

in a bad case of this, a shim would fix that but the thought of a shim just turns me off for some reason. especially on a well made bass like a G&L.

 

[joebar]

Adjusting the saddles may not be able to overcome geometry.

if the geometry is wrong then change it.

I think most bridges don't allow enough adjustment and is the culprit.

case in point-

I am going to acquiring a fretless G&L bass this week. I already know what is going to happen; because its a fretless, I am betting the farm that the G saddle will run out of travel due to the added distance of no fret height to clear. I may walk away if I feel it cant be adjusted correctly. I have owned enough FL basses to know that this is an overlooked problem on many of them.
how do I know this?
my fretted L2500 (if it were FL), would run out of travel. easiest fix would be to slot saddle deeper but that is a band aid.

I have seen it many times.

of course-a shim would fix everything and would bother only a few. I am one of those few.

 

[Glazenn]

Okay, cool, and no, mine (soon to be, anyway) is a beautiful green over ash (I'm a sucker for green). It's got a quartersawn neck, too!

Properly speaking, I'm not sure yours is with a quartersawn neck. Mine (JAN 1997) is not. It looks like a quartersawn neck because the wood lines appear to be all perpendicular to the front and the back of the headstock, but actually the neck is made of 4 pieces of wood that are assembled using the G&L bi-cut design. If you look closely to the headstock and the back of the neck (and to the front of the board if it were a maple fingerboard), you would see 3 contact lines from the heel to the headstock, and one is close to the middle (not exactly in the middle, but some 1/4" apart).

Congratulations for your aquisition, it's a stunning L2500 in Clear Forest Green (mine is in Clear Orange).

Can you please check the nut width once it's delivered? Is it 1-15/16" like mine (the 'Custom' model below) or less?

Specifications are as follows (leaflet issued probably by Q2 or Q3 1997) :

 

[songwriter21]

Properly speaking, I'm not sure yours is with a quartersawn neck. Mine (JAN 1997) is not. It looks like a quartersawn neck because the wood lines appear to be all perpendicular to the front and the back of the headstock, but actually the neck is made of 4 pieces of wood that are assembled using the G&L bi-cut design. If you look closely to the headstock and the back of the neck (and to the front of the board if it were a maple fingerboard), you would see 3 contact lines from the heel to the headstock, and one is close to the middle (not exactly in the middle, but some 1/4" apart).

View attachment 898588

Congratulations for your aquisition, it's a stunning L2500 in Clear Forest Green (mine is in Clear Orange).

Can you please check the nut width once it's delivered? Is it 1-15/16" like mine (the 'Custom' model below) or less?

Specifications are as follows (leaflet issued probably by Q2 or Q3 1997) :

Mine isn't a Custom, because I'm pretty sure that all of the Customs have that natural body binding. Another thing that's interesting, is that mine is a top-load bridge only, with no string-thru ferrules in the back. So, G&L obviously experimented with string-thru from '97/'98 to like a year or two? ago, and then went back to top-load-only again. Hopefully my fingers won't find the tension floppy, coming from years of playing 35", both top-load and string-thru. I'm more concerned with the tension of the top three strings, as a lot of the time they feel like rubber bands with 34", like MusicMan, Carvin, ESP, and a slew of others. Ibanez, Warwick, and Fender are nice for 34", so with good luck this G&L will be, too.

 

[UNICORN BASS]

All the semantics in this thread are getting out of hand. I simply pointed out that with a tilt neck i can adjust the angle of the neck relative to the fully lowered saddles and know with absolute certainty that i will be able to adjust the action to my style. When done correctly it does not twist the neck, cause ski jumps, or any other nasties, it just works, for me. That was it, that is all.

 

[songwriter21]

All the semantics in this thread are getting out of hand. I simply pointed out that with a tilt neck i can adjust the angle of the neck relative to the fully lowered saddles and know with absolute certainty that i will be able to adjust the action to my style. When done correctly it does not twist the neck, cause ski jumps, or any other nasties, it just works, for me. That was it, that is all.

Since my neck will have 6 bolts, would I loosen the back ones the most, and less towards the front? It's not like it's contoured like my Peaveys were, though, so maybe equal adjustment on the L2500?

 

[UNICORN BASS]

Never done a six bolt. I would think that the bolts should be loosened starting from the headstock end approx i turn, the next set 1.5 turns, and the pair nearest the body 2 turns. This should provide enough travel for the tilt adjustment. Just be careful not to adjust against the screws/bolts. Ensure they are always slightly loose. Once you are happy with the angle snug down the screws starting from the headstock end back to the body and re check your work. Finally torque down the screws when happy.

 

[96tbird]

the problem I see with many basses is that they run out of saddle travel and bottom out often before a good action can be achieved'; this happens to incorrectly cut/shallow saddle slots. usually happens on the G saddle for some reason.

that's another story.

in a bad case of this, a shim would fix that but the thought of a shim just turns me off for some reason. especially on a well made bass like a G&L.

Roger Sadowsky has ZERO problem with using shims. I for one will go with his opinion.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

My 83' G&L L2000 has the three bolt neck and micro- tilt, and I think I messed with it literally once in all these years, which makes me question why any bass needs more than 4 bolts, my neck has never moved in the pocket, and it's rock solid. A tiny change in neck angle makes a big difference, as I recall, so easy does it. They still have legacy manuals with micro tilt instructions here:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[songwriter21]

Roger Sadowsky has ZERO problem with using shims. I for one will go with his opinion.

If you're paying the price of a Sadowsky, especially a NYC model, then you should not need a shim. For those prices, you should be able to get the action "on the other side of the frets" (said by the late John Entwistle).

 

[202dy]

If you're paying the price of a Sadowsky, especially a NYC model, then you should not need a shim. .

Why?

 

[songwriter21]

Because of the rest of my quote. An instrument costing that much should be able to set up any way you want, without modifications.

 

[202dy]

Because of the rest of my quote. An instrument costing that much should be able to set up any way you want, without modifications.

The rest of your quote, paraphrased is, because you perceive the price to be more expensive than other products in the market place you expect the product to perform they way you think it should.

The designer and marketer of the product to which you refer has gone on record as saying that his product is the same as virtually every other product out there, regardless of price.

 

[songwriter21]

Interesting. What is most interesting to me, to this day, is that instruments like Sadowsky, failed very surprisingly to instruments I've owned, like G&L's, Peaveys (yes, Peavey), and other inexpensive brands, and I'm really picky with my basses. It's always a surprise. I say this, because I tried Sads where they should be the cream of the crop, at NAMM. Went to the '09 Winter one (the big one), was expecting to be blown away...I didn't get it....action, sound, feel, etc. Maybe it's got a studio staple that makes it shine or something. I just don't get it, and the same was when I tried Dingwall. The low B didn't sound or feel any different than a 35". Now Warrior, Lull, or MTD USA? Those were some absolutely killer basses!