Not sure what you mean by their "Lincoln Line", but if I have to invest in another cabinet so be it.
Now to prepare the Wife for the good news....
Now to prepare the Wife for the good news....
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Gallien Krueger just blew, need some advice.
- Thread starter Scrappersa
- Start date
What he meant was that the RBH line of cabs are GK's creme de la creme, their most expensive line. Though I too have the neo 412 and I must say that its worthy of having its own chapter in the Lore of Legends.
Hopkins
Commercial User
You best be careful running different drivers in the same box like that. They'll generally sound bad, cancel each others sound making you turn up blowing more drivers. I'd just run the 18 rather than risk blowing more speakers or shorting/frying your amp until you get your 410 fixed.
Bp102's can take a good deal of power and have massive low's but not much in the way of midrange (punch) just so ya know.
I don't know what kind of "research" you did, but it certainly was NOT about why a 1X15 is a poor match with a 4X10.
Congratulations though..................
You have just thrown money away on fixing your 15" so that it can just do the same thing again, AND you purchased yourself an overpriced power strip that will do NOTHING to solve the problem you encountered.
What's that old saying ? - You can lead a horse to water........
^ he'll figure it out eventually. I recall mixing a 410 with a 115 for one gig one time, I sounded more clanky than usual, so I took the 115 out for good. To be honest, I really prefer my 410 anyway - lots of punch and I can dial in some good low end.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
There's a bunch of issues here, and this thread is all over the board. Lets talk about some specifics of WHY its best to match your cabs if you can.
Power handling: if you have say a 1000w amp, and you're using two cabs of the same impedance, you're splitting your amp's power evenly between the two cabs. If you're sending 500w to your 4x10, each of those speakers is getting 125w. Then you're sending a full five hundred watts to the 15. You're asking WAY too much of that 15 as a single speaker, while those 10's aren't even sweating. You're LIMITING your output to what your 115 can take. Most likely, if you have that 115 under your 4x10 (because that's how the rock stars always show it in the magazines and in videos), then when your 15 starts to complain (distort, over heat, etc) you're less likely to hear it. Its further away from your ears than the 4x10 and that cab's louder anyway, so its masking your 15's signs of distress.
Size: Its long been a myth that you need a 15 for those deep down lows. In reality, size doesn't matter. Your 10's have the lows too, Sometimes it doesn't feel like they do, because they're masked because you can also hear that they have decent highs and mids too. The lows are still there, but our ears are used to 'adjusting' what we hear based upon the spectrum presented.
You're not hearing those mids and highs from the 15, because most likely, its down below knee height. The reality is that as frequency goes up, waves like to start 'beaming', aka not spreading out from the cone but being a narrow beam of waves. The cool thing to know is that the SMALLER the speaker, the LESS the beaming as you head north of 150hz. That's why 10's sound brighter to us...they don't beam nearly as much and have better 'off axis' (not right in front of speaker) sound.
Combining cabs: Its a crapshoot. Are those cabs going to play nice together? Who knows. And who knows what you're presenting out in the room past the usual 10 or so feet most players stand from their cabs. You may have odd canceling effects, interesting phase issues and strange summings, depending on what two cabs have going on. Not really anything that anyone wants to deal with. Either way, the easiest way to deal with such things is to get two identical cabs...they're the same, you can count on them being nice to each other and to your earholes.
Power conditioners: A fool and his money are soon parted. They're really glorified power strips, maybe they have flashing lights or a nice little LED display for window dressing. If you truly need real 'power conditioning' then you're looking at an expense of more than what your entire rig cost you, and it probably will weigh nearly as much too.
Bring an outlet tester. Use it. Your amp should have all of the 'safeguards' it needs, and anything more that hits it and could cause trouble won't be stopped by a consumer level rack mount conditioner.
Power handling: if you have say a 1000w amp, and you're using two cabs of the same impedance, you're splitting your amp's power evenly between the two cabs. If you're sending 500w to your 4x10, each of those speakers is getting 125w. Then you're sending a full five hundred watts to the 15. You're asking WAY too much of that 15 as a single speaker, while those 10's aren't even sweating. You're LIMITING your output to what your 115 can take. Most likely, if you have that 115 under your 4x10 (because that's how the rock stars always show it in the magazines and in videos), then when your 15 starts to complain (distort, over heat, etc) you're less likely to hear it. Its further away from your ears than the 4x10 and that cab's louder anyway, so its masking your 15's signs of distress.
Size: Its long been a myth that you need a 15 for those deep down lows. In reality, size doesn't matter. Your 10's have the lows too, Sometimes it doesn't feel like they do, because they're masked because you can also hear that they have decent highs and mids too. The lows are still there, but our ears are used to 'adjusting' what we hear based upon the spectrum presented.
You're not hearing those mids and highs from the 15, because most likely, its down below knee height. The reality is that as frequency goes up, waves like to start 'beaming', aka not spreading out from the cone but being a narrow beam of waves. The cool thing to know is that the SMALLER the speaker, the LESS the beaming as you head north of 150hz. That's why 10's sound brighter to us...they don't beam nearly as much and have better 'off axis' (not right in front of speaker) sound.
Combining cabs: Its a crapshoot. Are those cabs going to play nice together? Who knows. And who knows what you're presenting out in the room past the usual 10 or so feet most players stand from their cabs. You may have odd canceling effects, interesting phase issues and strange summings, depending on what two cabs have going on. Not really anything that anyone wants to deal with. Either way, the easiest way to deal with such things is to get two identical cabs...they're the same, you can count on them being nice to each other and to your earholes.
Power conditioners: A fool and his money are soon parted. They're really glorified power strips, maybe they have flashing lights or a nice little LED display for window dressing. If you truly need real 'power conditioning' then you're looking at an expense of more than what your entire rig cost you, and it probably will weigh nearly as much too.
Bring an outlet tester. Use it. Your amp should have all of the 'safeguards' it needs, and anything more that hits it and could cause trouble won't be stopped by a consumer level rack mount conditioner.
Thanks for explaining it in a clear, concise manner. Much appreciated.
Tonight I'll just run the 18" and leave the 4X10" in the basement and fix it. But if I replace the G-K's factory speakers with a set of Eminence and decide to run a second 4X10" how does the impedance work? Do I need a second cabinet w/ 4 X 10" Eminence's, or a matched set in that cabinet (obviously with the same OHM)?
Thanks again.
When I was planning my rig I initially wanted to pair my Hartke 410XL with a Hartke 115XL. Not a bad setup actually but I listened to those on TB and almost everyone discouraged the idea of pairing the 410 with the 115 for the exact reasons as the previous posts. I bought the Hartke 210XL and never looked back. I move a lot of air with this setup. My band loves it, the crowd loves it and I love it. Listen carefully to what is said about pairing of cabs. It worked for me and I am almost certain it will work in your current situation. Best of luck.
Hopkins
Commercial User
I don't know where you got those figures, but they are markedly exaggerated. The correct way to estimate the area is using the diameter of the paper cone + 1 side of the surround. This is because only 1/2 the surround actually moves and contributes to the output. More typical values for MI speakers are:
10 = 50 in2
12 = 80 in2
15 = 130 in2
Based on this, a 1x15 is closer to a 3x10 box, especially considering that most 15" speakers have more excursion than a 10", and more excursion equals more output.
Actually radius squared multiplied by Pi
10"= ~63in
12"= ~91in
15"= ~148in
210 about 126in
This all depends on the actual surface area of the cone which can vary. The actual drivers would need to be measured to include depth.
10"= ~63in
12"= ~91in
15"= ~148in
210 about 126in
This all depends on the actual surface area of the cone which can vary. The actual drivers would need to be measured to include depth.
@BurningSkies, thanks for explaining with logic what everybody else is saying. It makes total sense. The fact that I got 6 years out of my cab is amazing and if I can get another 6 years doing the same thing, then it's worth a $99 recone job.
From everything I've read, it looks like power conditioners are a waste so I'm not going that route.
I'm going to try something different. I'm going run my power amp in parallel input mode. My 410 will go through one channel and my 115 will go through the other. I'll try to find a nice balance where the 115 isn't being pushed too hard. If it's a problem, I can always sell my current power amp and buy another one that that can push more power into each individual channel so I can balance it better. If that's a problem, then I can always match my 115 or my 410 with another. And between the two, I would probably go with another 115 anyways because I like how it sounds, and I feel like I can get more bass out this specific model without it farting.
From everything I've read, it looks like power conditioners are a waste so I'm not going that route.
I'm going to try something different. I'm going run my power amp in parallel input mode. My 410 will go through one channel and my 115 will go through the other. I'll try to find a nice balance where the 115 isn't being pushed too hard. If it's a problem, I can always sell my current power amp and buy another one that that can push more power into each individual channel so I can balance it better. If that's a problem, then I can always match my 115 or my 410 with another. And between the two, I would probably go with another 115 anyways because I like how it sounds, and I feel like I can get more bass out this specific model without it farting.
Hopkins
Commercial User
Running through different channels can work, but if you push your 410 at all its still going to swallow the 115. If your back the 410 off to match the volume of the 115 you may find yourself having volume issues.
I know a lot of time has gone by, however, there's something that bears adding here. Just changing out a set of 10s in one cab for a different set of 10s isn't a good idea for another reason. If the travel values of the speakers do not match those of the originals, then the tuning changes, the porting needs change, etc. When speaker cabinets are designed, they are designed with the performance characteristics of the individual driver in mind. Changing those driver characteristics changes the operational characteristics of the cabinet. So instead of just finding a speaker with the right size and ohms, you need to dig deeper and find out if the performance parameters of the speaker are close to, or the same, as the original speakers.
