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Double Bass Gave up my class D amp for valves!

Peck_Time

Peck_Time

Mar 21, 2005
680
175
51
Wellington, New Zealand
#1
hi all, i've been using a wee Genz benz head with my EA Whizzy 12 for 3 years now. I had an iamp 500 before that.

I love the size and weight of the gb,but missed the grunt of the iAmp. I almost pulled the trigger of the nos one that gollihurmusic has, but decided to go and check out some amps locally.

I took my bass and genz head down and played through a bunch of stuff- mainly Aguilar and Ashdown.
The shop had a couple of tonehammer heads and the monster 750 watt mosfet Aguilar head too.
I am very surprised to say that i came away with the ctm100 valve head from Ashdown.

I'm not a tube guy but the difference was night and day compared to all the solid state heads. It sounds great- and the piezo badness from my fullcircle seems to disappear. There are two inputs on the head, one is 1.1megaohm which is perfect for piezos.
I have no idea how to run the passive eq but there is enough toneshaping for me.

Through the whizzy 12 , my bass is delicious buttery goodness. Not 'my bass only louder' but a gutsy sound that sits nicely, almost like i have gut strings (i have spiro mittels).
 
#3
Peck_Time said:
I am very surprised to say that i came away with the ctm100 valve head from Ashdown.

I'm not a tube guy but the difference was night and day compared to all the solid state heads. It sounds great- and the piezo badness from my fullcircle seems to disappear. There are two inputs on the head, one is 1.1megaohm which is perfect for piezos.
I have no idea how to run the passive eq but there is enough toneshaping for me.

Through the whizzy 12 , my bass is delicious buttery goodness. Not 'my bass only louder' but a gutsy sound that sits nicely, almost like i have gut strings (i have spiro mittels).
Click to expand...

Peck Time,
Well, congradulations, if you've found the sound your after than that's all you can really ask for. I still own my B-15N(C) and it's in near mint condition, so I can compare it to the other amps, I'm lucky enough to have in my posession.
For tone, weight and timbre, either of my Walter Woods amps sound far better, as does the Headway EDB-2. Since not everyone own's a Walter Woods it's probably not a fair comparison, but the EDB-2 is great and can be combined
with any decent powered speaker. Since the CTM 100 weighs 41 lbs, that's a deal breaker for me. Just my take.

Ric
 
#5
Congrats on finding your sound! As I've posted in detail here throughout the years along with explanations, your preference really has little do with the fact that it is a tube amp and virtually everything to do with the transfer function ("frequency response") of the device. That transfer function could be built into a solid-state (SS) amp as "voicing" and quite a number of manufacturers have done that very thing. The sonic characteristics you describe are pretty much textbook in terms of the expected interactions between the output transformer of the Ashdown and the Whizzy 12. Simply put, it is the frequency response anomalies and their interaction with your cab that you prefer. There's nothing wrong with that if it is what you like! No one, least of all me, would or could argue with your preference. People should use what they prefer. Depending upon the design of the tube circuit, when overdriven, some tube circuits will distort in a more "graceful" way than will many SS designs. That's important for guitar players for whom that distortion is part of their sound. When amplifying the DB, most of us try to avoid overdriving the amp.

Tubes amps are heavier and less reliable than SS amps, especially when used for musical instrument amplification. Now, before you conclude that I'm anti-tube---au contraire! I understand tube circuits and have spent many hours restoring tube amps. The music system in my office is centered around a 60+ year-old tube amp. I'm a pastor in the church of iron and glass-- but a realistic one. :)

Again, no one can argue with your preference. If the Ashdown represents the most direct path to your desired sound, then by all means, enjoy! I'm simply pointing out that it doesn't result from the amp being tube-based, per se or from some inherent superiority of tubes vs. transistors.
 
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#6
Couldn't disagree more.
Ive played literally tons of amps and while the frequency response and voicing can be similar, the rich, organic, 3D tone of the bass is never replicated the same. It always sounds more flat or sterile.
Also, for reliability, ive had a number of solid state amps release the magic smoke, but other than one tube failure in 20 years my iron and glass has stayed dead on every time.
 
#7
eyeballkid said:
Couldn't disagree more.
Ive played literally tons of amps and while the frequency response and voicing can be similar, the rich, organic, 3D tone of the bass is never replicated the same. It always sounds more flat or sterile.
Also, for reliability, ive had a number of solid state amps release the magic smoke, but other than one tube failure in 20 years my iron and glass has stayed dead on every time.
Click to expand...
Believe what you want, but the science is what it is. It's not easy to find a SS amp built with the same transfer function as a tube amp. That's largely because there's little demand for that. The result is that it is basically ONLY a tube amp that will yield the response anomalies and interactions that you prefer. That's in practice. In principle, those could be built into a SS amp. Your comments about "sterile" sound echo arguments of decades ago and there really is now a clear understanding of what gives rise to them. If you prefer the typical lower-midrange response produced by interactions of the output tranny and cab, then a typical unvoiced SS amp will sound undesirable to you. As for reliability, well, I think it's well-documented. Certainly tube amps are heavier. For those of us who seek to amplify the DB using "unvoiced" circuits, SS is the clear winner. Again, I'm not arguing with preferences. I'm merely pointing out which aspects of the electronics yield the response properties that some desire. Those are matters of fact, not opinion.
 
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#8
drurb said:
Believe what you want, but the science is what it is. It's not easy to find a SS amp built with the same transfer function as a tube amp. That's largely because there's little demand for that. The result is that it is basically ONLY a tube amp that will yield the response anomalies and interactions that you prefer. That's in practice. In principle, those could be built into a SS amp. Your comments about "sterile" sound echo arguments of decades ago and there really is now a clear understanding of what gives rise to them. If you prefer the typical lower-midrange response produced by interactions of the output tranny and cab, then a typical unvoiced SS amp will sound undesirable to you. As for reliability, well, I think it's well-documented. Certainly tube amps are heavier. For those of us who seek to amplify the DB using "unvoiced" circuits, SS is the clear winner. Again, I'm not arguing with preferences. I'm merely pointing out which aspects of the electronics yield the response properties that some desire. Those are matters of fact, not opinion.
Click to expand...

This might well be true.

It does baffle me that no one is doing it successfully, though, for whatever reason.

The GB Streamliner was an interesting attempt with its own vibe but it is not to be mistaken for a tube amp.

The emulation based ones can sound great but don't have those characteristics we are discussing here, neither the feel.

I do fully believe you and would be the first to consider an SS amp that sounded just like my SVT, and felt the same playing it.
 
#9
One Drop said:
This might well be true.

It does baffle me that no one is doing it successfully, though, for whatever reason.

The GB Streamliner was an interesting attempt with its own vibe but it is not to be mistaken for a tube amp.

The emulation based ones can sound great but don't have those characteristics we are discussing here, neither the feel.

I do fully believe you and would be the first to consider an SS amp that sounded just like my SVT, and felt the same playing it.
Click to expand...
Well, we seem to agree. If one wishes to have the response anomalies of tube circuits and their large output inductors (trannys), then the most straightforward path to that is to buy one!
 
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#10
drurb said:
Believe what you want, but the science is what it is. It's not easy to find a SS amp built with the same transfer function as a tube amp. That's largely because there's little demand for that. The result is that it is basically ONLY a tube amp that will yield the response anomalies and interactions that you prefer. That's in practice. In principle, those could be built into a SS amp. Your comments about "sterile" sound echo arguments of decades ago and there really is now a clear understanding of what gives rise to them. If you prefer the typical lower-midrange response produced by interactions of the output tranny and cab, then a typical unvoiced SS amp will sound undesirable to you. As for reliability, well, I think it's well-documented. Certainly tube amps are heavier. For those of us who seek to amplify the DB using "unvoiced" circuits, SS is the clear winner. Again, I'm not arguing with preferences. I'm merely pointing out which aspects of the electronics yield the response properties that some desire. Those are matters of fact, not opinion.
Click to expand...

I understand where you're coming from and Im definitely one that can discuss this without getting pissy. Where I disagree with you is kind of on your last sentence and that you assert that its just a transfer function of the lower mid-range response. Yes you can adjust EQs and such, but Ive tried tons of tube emulators and hybrid amps. They may be the same in the naked frequency response and even emulate or model the breakup in a way thats good enough for gubberment work. BUT, its not an opinion I would say, that there is a quantifiable distinct auditory difference in the heft, richness and body of the tone even if the spectrum analysis looks the same. PERHAPS, there is a POSSIBLE solid state amp that could do the same. I havent found it yet. I have found some simply beautiful sounding hybrid amps, but they have always paled in comparison to me in a A/B test. I even have, and still do have, the solid state/hybrid and tube versions of the exact same amp. The differences in tone, body, richness, and feel are incredible! I can play either and be happy in a live situation, and I WISH the hybrid did it for me like the tube as life would be alot easier, but it doesnt. Im not bashing solid state and hybrids. They are a wonderful choice for alot of guys, but it just isnt the same for some of us, and I am begrudgingly in that expensive and heavy lifting group.
 
#11
interesting.....I love tube amps...I love their glowing throwbackness and their heavyness and their monster transformers and their sound. That said I just got my old Sansui AU 717 (a SS ampthat was supposed to sound as warm as tubes) back from the shop and A/B'd it with a friends various tube amps (Mcintosh, Dynaco, Fisher) and ya know, just in terms of warmth and clairty and good sound, the Sansui sounds better...warmer, clearer. BUT just a knob faced amp, no glowing tubes or bumpy skyline silhouette....Im going to put a nixie clock on top of it and call it a day.
 
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#12
ive honestly never heard or ANY of those.. (shame on me)

by the way.. I just realized that this is in the DB forum, and not on the electric side. What you guys experience could be COMPLETELY different as our instruments are only similar in name sometimes.
 
#17
eyeballkid said:
Couldn't disagree more.
Ive played literally tons of amps and while the frequency response and voicing can be similar, the rich, organic, 3D tone of the bass is never replicated the same. It always sounds more flat or sterile.
Also, for reliability, ive had a number of solid state amps release the magic smoke, but other than one tube failure in 20 years my iron and glass has stayed dead on every time.
Click to expand...
eyeballkid said:
Couldn't disagree more.
Ive played literally tons of amps and while the frequency response and voicing can be similar, the rich, organic, 3D tone of the bass is never replicated the same. It always sounds more flat or sterile.
Also, for reliability, ive had a number of solid state amps release the magic smoke, but other than one tube failure in 20 years my iron and glass has stayed dead on every time.
Click to expand...

Eyeball Kid,

One quick question here, in looking at your information profile I notice that you only list Electric Basses. Do you mainly play EB?

Ric

Edit, Found you're post, regarding this
 
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#18
yeah. I ONLY play electric. This thread came up in my mobile feed and I responded because it was an apparent "i love the tubes" thread... THEN I saw this was in the DB forum side of TB and, as you can see above in my later post, then admitted that the experience of DB guys may be TOTALLY different that us electric slingers. ... so, ignore what I say as much as you want! lol
 
#19
Some great responses on this thread. I agree with Drurb that there's no 'magic' in tubes and big transformers. I will continue to try all amps SS or valve and try not to let my biases sway me too much (might be another good thread- i don't like the ashdown look, i really wanted to like the Aguilar better as aesthetically i like its design! :) )
I also realised that when i go through an amp and pickup that 'my bass only louder' is fools gold - for me.

I salute those of you who manage the faithful replication of your unamped sound. I went down that road for 10 years and never managed it.

I like to play ampless where i can, normally rooms with pianos, but sometimes thats not possible.

Now my goal is the best amplified sound i can manage- without going bankrupt!
 
#20
I've skipped most of this thread, so forgive me. I believe tube and transistor amps sound very different. Whether it's all 'frequency anomalies' or not I can't say. From my experience suffering from 'audiophilia' and building tube amps I always enjoyed the purity of sound tube amps offered. Tube amps are pretty simple circuits and I think the music comes through better, especially in the midrange. For gigging I prefer a small class D amp.
Glad you are happy.
 

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