Genz Benz Shuttle Max 12.0

[KJung]

So if i were to run my two 8 ohm cabs.. i suppose it would be louder running one cab per side of the amp.. in theory i will get more power that way than to run th etwo off one side of the amp??


On another note This is just what the back doctor ordered...

This would not be the head top buy if you had two 8ohm cabs. That would basically be the same as running a Shuttle 6.0 at 4ohms (it should be about the same wattage).

If I'm understanding the design of this, it's even more limiting than the old Eden WT800, which could only be bridged into an 8ohm cab. It seems this isn't even bridgable into 8 (if I read the thread correctly), so the only way this amp makes sense is if you have two relatively large 4ohm cabs (similar to the Epi902, which has no separate volume controls for each amp, is not bridgable, and only puts out its full rated power into two separate 4ohm cabs).

The Puma1000 is a somewhat similar design, but you can bridge into 8ohms, which means you have the option of two relately large 4ohm cabs, or a large, high power 8ohm cab. Of course, the newer Eden WT800's allow bridging into 4ohms, which opens up many more cab options.

 

[svtb15]

The reason i was wondering is i think it is 375 per channel into 8 ohms so that would be 750-ish watts as compared to running both cabs on one channel where the output would be around 600 watts at that 4 ohm load.
IS that how it works?

 

[hasbeen]

Hey Roger,
How about the gig bags??? Yes... No.... ????
I wont sell my old 3 space if I'll need to rack this one.

yes...we have a padded, nylon bag for it: STL-MAX-BAG

 

[hasbeen]

The reason i was wondering is i think it is 375 per channel into 8 ohms so that would be 750-ish watts as compared to running both cabs on one channel where the output would be around 600 watts at that 4 ohm load.
IS that how it works?

To be frank, I "think" you are right. I defer to our engineer though.

 

[hasbeen]

To be frank, I "think" you are right. I defer to our engineer though.

here you go Kirk....straight from the catalog copy we're working on:

The ShuttleMAX12.0 dual power amp design offers a variety of
available output power choices:
One 8 ohm load (either Amp A or Amp B driven)......... 375 watts
One 4 ohm load (either Amp A or Amp B driven)......... 600 watts
Two 8 ohm loads (Amp A and Amp B driven)............ 750 watts
One 4 ohm load (Amp A) one 8 ohm load (Amp B)...... 975 watts
Two 4 ohm loads (Amp A and Amp B driven)........... 1200 watts

 

[svtb15]

Thank you very much

 

[buffordbass]

here you go Kirk....straight from the catalog copy we're working on:

The ShuttleMAX12.0 dual power amp design offers a variety of
available output power choices:
One 8 ohm load (either Amp A or Amp B driven)......... 375 watts
One 4 ohm load (either Amp A or Amp B driven)......... 600 watts
Two 8 ohm loads (Amp A and Amp B driven)............ 750 watts
One 4 ohm load (Amp A) one 8 ohm load (Amp B)...... 975 watts
Two 4 ohm loads (Amp A and Amp B driven)........... 1200 watts

i gotta get more cab's............

 

[MikeBass]

i gotta get more cab's............

Ya know......I'm really starting to dis-like Genz Benz even more these days!!!!!!

C'Mon, guys, offer a 4ohm NEOX112!!!!

 

[agedhorse]

C'Mon, guys, offer a 4ohm NEOX112!!!!

Even though it seems like a good idea in theory, here's why a 4 ohm 112 is not such a good idea in practice (this applies as a general comment, not just to our equipment)...

600 watts into 4 ohms is just too much power for a single 12" driver operating at low bass frequencies. The problem is that the mechanical parameters of the driver's suspension become exceeded before reaching 600 watts. Add on top of that the significant issue of power compression at those power levels that can easily be as much as 70% and the point of diminishing returns is the limiting factor and getting a second 12" cabinet results in much greater practical performance.

So, in summary, the improvements in performance are minimal while the increased risk of driver damage is much higher.

 

[agedhorse]

This would not be the head top buy if you had two 8ohm cabs. That would basically be the same as running a Shuttle 6.0 at 4ohms (it should be about the same wattage).

Not the same. The amp delivers 375 watts at 8 ohms and the dynamic power is greater still. This is a good match for many (of course not all) players who may want to add or subtract cabinets depending on the type of gig they play, and who want to be sure thay have an upgrade path if they choose to chenge their speaker selection down the road.

If I'm understanding the design of this, it's even more limiting than the old Eden WT800, which could only be bridged into an 8ohm cab. It seems this isn't even bridgable into 8 (if I read the thread correctly), so the only way this amp makes sense is if you have two relatively large 4ohm cabs (similar to the Epi902, which has no separate volume controls for each amp, is not bridgable, and only puts out its full rated power into two separate 4ohm cabs).

Perhaps you are either misunderstanding the application or overthinking the opportunity it provides to some players.

For the majority of players, it makes no sense to be able to bridge an amp into 8 ohms. For most players, 1200 watts into (most) single 8 ohm cabinets is well beyond the reasonable power handling and is past the point of diminshing returns.

This amp makes sense if you have a couple of 8 ohm cabinets, an 8 ohm and a 4 ohm cabinet, a couple of 4 ohm cabinets OR if in the future you may wish to expand your rig without the need to buy a new amp along with more speakers. It also makes sense to the player who is downsizing the size and weight of their large cabinets with newer, more compact (and lower power handling) types and taking advantage of scalability by using 1, 2, 3 or 4 small 8 ohm cabinets like some of the new offerings by various manufacturers.

The Puma1000 is a somewhat similar design, but you can bridge into 8ohms, which means you have the option of two relately large 4ohm cabs, or a large, high power 8ohm cab. Of course, the newer Eden WT800's allow bridging into 4ohms, which opens up many more cab options.

Many players are starting to take the more compact high performance cabinets seriously. I think the long term trend is in this direction, this amp (and others) are excellent options for this segment of the market. Not all players share your own personal requirements, that's why options (by all manufacturers) exist.

 

[buffordbass]

Dang, I think I understand what he said, for once!!! LOL...

 

[KJung]

Not the same. The amp delivers 375 watts at 8 ohms and the dynamic power is greater still. This is a good match for many (of course not all) players who may want to add or subtract cabinets depending on the type of gig they play, and who want to be sure thay have an upgrade path if they choose to chenge their speaker selection down the road.



Perhaps you are either misunderstanding the application or overthinking the opportunity it provides to some players.

For the majority of players, it makes no sense to be able to bridge an amp into 8 ohms. For most players, 1200 watts into (most) single 8 ohm cabinets is well beyond the reasonable power handling and is past the point of diminshing returns.

This amp makes sense if you have a couple of 8 ohm cabinets, an 8 ohm and a 4 ohm cabinet, a couple of 4 ohm cabinets OR if in the future you may wish to expand your rig without the need to buy a new amp along with more speakers. It also makes sense to the player who is downsizing the size and weight of their large cabinets with newer, more compact (and lower power handling) types and taking advantage of scalability by using 1, 2, 3 or 4 small 8 ohm cabinets like some of the new offerings by various manufacturers.




Many players are starting to take the more compact high performance cabinets seriously. I think the long term trend is in this direction, this amp (and others) are excellent options for this segment of the market. Not all players share your own personal requirements, that's why options (by all manufacturers) exist.

Of course, all your points except one are good ones IMO.

Why would you have a 1000 watt rated 410 in your line-up, or have a 1200 watt lead sled mono-block amp in your line-up that many seem to pair with your Neo212 (which I think is 4ohm.. I assume that's about 800 watts with the GBE1200), and then say that bridging a high powered 1000 watt head into 8 ohms is not a good idea? The Eden WT800 (an industry standard for over a decade) was primarily run this way... bridged into a single 410XLT.

The market will obviously render its judgement on this design. For the most part, it looks very cool. However, not being able to bridge that head into a large high powered 8ohm cab seems like a strange design decision.

IMO as always!

Edit: That all being said, this head driving two of the new 4ohm Schroeder 30 pound 115L+ cabs seems like a VERY interesting idea to me! Talk about a mega mini rig!

 

[coolrunner989]

I think it was a matter of trade-offs that the GB design team decided to go with the two smaller poweramps that are already bridged and to appeal to the small/lightweight modular system while keeping their big "led-sled" for the traditional cab roles - mono bridged 8ohm, 4ohm, etc.
The shuttle Max 12.0 isnt quite a do it all head (it cant do 8 ohm bridged with tons of watts) but it seems to handle every other cab situation quite well, able to do anything from four 8 ohm cabs to two 4 ohm ones. I think it's an acceptable trade-off, and quite impressive actually.

 

[Eublet]

Wowzers! Looks just like what I've been begging for the last couple of years. Hasbeen, can I take some credit for this release? Or better said, will you take credit cards for me to purchase one?

 

[KJung]

I think it was a matter of trade-offs that the GB design team decided to go with the two smaller poweramps that are already bridged and to appeal to the small/lightweight modular system while keeping their big "led-sled" for the traditional cab roles - mono bridged 8ohm, 4ohm, etc.
The shuttle Max 12.0 isnt quite a do it all head (it cant do 8 ohm bridged with tons of watts) but it seems to handle every other cab situation quite well, able to do anything from four 8 ohm cabs to two 4 ohm ones. I think it's an acceptable trade-off, and quite impressive actually.

I agree totally. I just love noodling all this stuff Literally every piece of gear has 'issues'.. there is no 'perfect'.

I'm VERY happy they have adjustable voicing filters on this head. That's a huge step forward from the Shuttle 6/3. Given the power and the weight, it's definitely pretty amazing.

I just wish there were more heads like the Markbass SD800... a good honest 750 watts into 4 ohms, and under 8 pounds. I really don't dig the tone of the SD800 for the most part, and wish I could get a Shuttle/LMII/Puma/GB2-500 with true lead sled specs in a simple monoblock design that would put out a lot of power into a single 8ohm cab, and a LOT of power into either two 8ohm cabs are a single, big, high power 4 ohm cab.

I'm sure it's coming within 12 to 18 months Of course, the 500 watt or so amps I'm using now are plenty for 95% of my applications, but headroom is never a bad thing

 

[kevbassman]

it has more features than the GBE1200 actually- two band para mids for each channel. Also, the channels have high gain vs. low gain switches. We did this so you could purposely get some extreme tube overdriven tones on the tube channel.

WOW!
Double Wow!

 

[gil_mor]

For the most part, it looks very cool. However, not being able to bridge that head into a large high powered 8ohm cab seems like a strange design decision.

+1

I have a 500W 8ohm cab, the shuttle6 wasn't giving me enough power, nor would the 12...

 

[agedhorse]

EVERYTHING is a trade-off. Engineering is the art of managing tradeoffs.

As an engineer (aside from the marketing stuff) , I have to look at how a product would appeal to the greatest number of players in the most useful way for them. Nothing is going to be all things to all people for all applications. Life would be pretty boring if that were true. We would all be playing the same bass through the same amp through the same cabinet and playing the same lines. Not very interesting IMO.

Regarding the variable voicing filters, there is a tradeoff in size versus available features. To many folks, size is more important than variable filters, two preamp channels, seperate eq etc, but for others the features are more important than the size. Weight seems to be getting pretty important for more and more players though... especially as we all get older and maybe a bit more sensible

Regarding the Shuttle not being enough for the 500 watt x 8 ohm cabinet, 1200 watts would not be all that great of a match either. Not knowing the cabinet details, I suspect that 1200 watts would subject the driver(s) to excessive mechanical loads and shorten their life. Maybe the GBE-1200 would have been a better match for THIS application. Maybe not.

 

[Fretlessboy]

well a cool bag... and 600 per side is a good thing. I think a lot of people are looking at power and forgetting the beauty of the new EQ. I think if it only had a 600 watt amp in it, the eq section is the bomb for control... think of it as a hotrodded 1200/6.0 hybrid with a back up amp built in.
Every body wanted the 2 ohm option to run more cabinets...now you can... even a pair of neoX112's gives you a 750 watt rig with a smokin' eq. If another company cam out with that as a new head the world would be stoked. But since we can't run 1 cabinet and get the1200 watts juice from it, Genz sucks? That is why they build the GBE1200. So think of the 12 Max as an EQ improved 750.

 

[KJung]

EVERYTHING is a trade-off. Engineering is the art of managing tradeoffs.

As an engineer (aside from the marketing stuff) , I have to look at how a product would appeal to the greatest number of players in the most useful way for them. Nothing is going to be all things to all people for all applications. Life would be pretty boring if that were true. We would all be playing the same bass through the same amp through the same cabinet and playing the same lines. Not very interesting IMO.

Regarding the variable voicing filters, there is a tradeoff in size versus available features. To many folks, size is more important than variable filters, two preamp channels, seperate eq etc, but for others the features are more important than the size. Weight seems to be getting pretty important for more and more players though... especially as we all get older and maybe a bit more sensible

Regarding the Shuttle not being enough for the 500 watt x 8 ohm cabinet, 1200 watts would not be all that great of a match either. Not knowing the cabinet details, I suspect that 1200 watts would subject the driver(s) to excessive mechanical loads and shorten their life. Maybe the GBE-1200 would have been a better match for THIS application. Maybe not.

+1 Everything is a trade-off in design. It looks pretty killer.