It looks like a modular rig builders dream to me. Add cabs in many different combinations up to 1200 watts, but still small and light enough to power a little single driver cab at the jazz gig. I'm assuming this will debut at NAMM, so Santa won't have access to these in time for Christmas.
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Genz Benz Shuttle Max 12.0
- Thread starter ::::BASSIST::::
- Start date
hasbeen
Commercial User
- Sep 23, 2004
- 4,806
- 2,668
- Disclosures
- Executive Vice President, The Adam Hall Group
I really do love it that you guys actually have product available when you show it an NAMM. VERY cool.
I'll look forward to checking one of these out sometime.
+1............ I Agree 110%. The design is ok for some. Not for all. Not for me. I rather have a mono 750 4 ohms than a 600 at 4 ohms in each channel. If the DB750 was only 5lbs
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
- 4,741
- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
Hi CI,
One thing that was brought up earlier is if you have two 8 ohm cabs.. then you can run one cab off each side of the amp.
The MAX 12 does 375 watts per channel.. there are your 750 watts and the amp is not even breaking a sweat.
That would work with your two Aggy cabs.
but if you were using your AE410 you would get the 600 that you describe
One thing that was brought up earlier is if you have two 8 ohm cabs.. then you can run one cab off each side of the amp.
The MAX 12 does 375 watts per channel.. there are your 750 watts and the amp is not even breaking a sweat.
That would work with your two Aggy cabs.
but if you were using your AE410 you would get the 600 that you describe
+1............ I Agree 110%. The design is ok for some. Not for all. Not for me. I rather have a mono 750 4 ohms than a 600 at 4 ohms in each channel. If the DB750 was only 5lbs
Uggh, that's too soon!
I've only saved 1053 pennies so far.
Seems like FOREVER to me............
(I just sold some 'stuff' and broke open the piggy bank)
... waiting, waiting, waiting, ..... patiently??? I think NOT!!!!!!!!!!
there are a lot of knobs, but they are pretty straightforward. Basically a few parametric eq's and a knob for each pre shape.
That's nothing compared to my old mesa, with two each of the following: compressors, compressor levels, graphic eq, standard eq, gains and masters... easily twice as complicated. And it didn't sound so great flat, so you HAD to tweak.
If the basic tone of the 12.0 is workable, I think that the amp would be fairly simple to adjust on the fly on stage if need be. Definitely not a simple amp, but not too bad IMO.
That's nothing compared to my old mesa, with two each of the following: compressors, compressor levels, graphic eq, standard eq, gains and masters... easily twice as complicated. And it didn't sound so great flat, so you HAD to tweak.
If the basic tone of the 12.0 is workable, I think that the amp would be fairly simple to adjust on the fly on stage if need be. Definitely not a simple amp, but not too bad IMO.
I disagree because it's a dual channel amp, so once you cut the number of knobs in half for each channel, you don't have anything more than what would be on a typical head. Of course, if you are one who is scared of a parametric EQ, or would just rather have a fixed EQ, then this might offer more flexibility than you'd like.
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
- 4,741
- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
then all you have to do is leave them all in the 12 o'clock mid setting and only use gain, Master and Mute
hasbeen
Commercial User
- Sep 23, 2004
- 4,806
- 2,668
- Disclosures
- Executive Vice President, The Adam Hall Group
no change. There is a change though, to the bass roll-off. I "think" it rolls off at 30 hz vs. 40 hz. on the 6.0. Agedhorse can correct me if I'm wrong.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,019
- 5
- 220,878
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
The 6.0's rolloff point (w/ out the LF extend) is ~40Hz and the 12.0 is ~30Hz.
To provide some perspective, and an educational opportunity, let me give some background in why LF rolloffs (HPF's) are used in most professional applications including virtually ALL PROFESSIONAL PA SYSTEMS up to and including arena touring rigs. I come from a pro audio design background, so of course this affects many of the details of our product... intentionally or otherwise.
For both bass reflex (vented or ported) cabnest as well as horn loaded cabinets, there is a point in the low frequency response where the driver begins to unload from the box (or decouple from the horn). At this point, there is a very significant lack of control of the driver by the box and the cone displacement begins to exceed what is safe for the mechanical suspension structure of the driver. Also, the sensitivity (SPL output for a given power input) falls off rapidly like jumping off a cliff. All that power goes to waste other than to cause damage to the driver(s). In the average to large sized bass cabinet this begins to happen around 40Hz-55Hz. In very large cabinets, or those with driver parameters that allow for extended LF tunings at the expense of efficiency/sensitivity, you may get to 32Hz but this would be quite rare. For comparison sake, a mid level 18" PA subwoofer is probably beginning to unload in the high 30's to low 40's. A full on pro sub (a quite large box, maybe 15 cubic ft per driver) will begin to unload in the low 30's or very high 20's. The mechanism with horn loaded bass boxes is different but is still related to the size of the horn mouth and the throat geometry and in general will be higher for a given sized box but the sensitivity will be higher as well... part of the horn tradeoff. Also, speaker power handling, while presented as a single number (say 500 watts "RMS") is really a series of ratings that vary with frequency. This 500 watt speaker may only have a (real) power rating of 200 watts at 35Hz and only 100 watts at 20Hz, one of the biggest causes of mechanical damage in (all manufacture's) bass cabinets. High pass filtering, especially high ordered filters, are an important part of protecting the drivers and improving the perceived tightness by maintaning better control of the cone under high powered use.
So, while the Shuttle 6.0 is intended (primarily) to be used with average to compact sized boxes which make up the majority of what's out there, a 38Hz HPF gives the best combination of performance to the majority of users in the intended application. With the LF extend voicing filter engaged, this functionally causes (along with other things) some shifting of the HPF down to ~36Hz... well below the unloading point of all modern COMPACT cabinets (like the 1 x 8" and 1 x 10") and plenty low for the vast majority of average sized bass cabinets on the market. Below this is the point of diminishing returns at this power level and cabinet size/type/rating.
The Shuttle 12.0 is intended as a step up in power, performance and features but as with everything in life trades off size, weight and price compared to the 6.0. The HPF has been stepped down about 1/4-octave and the LF extend variability can shift this down to about 26Hz when fully engaged (variable). This is below the limit of virtually all pro bass cabinets on the market. Of course, using the full LF Extend would not be adviseable with the compact cabinets or even many of the average cabinets unless they have substantial REAL power handling. Other features that come into play are the variable voicing filters (there was no room to put them on the 6.0 without making the 6.0 bigger), 4 band eq w/ 2 sweep mids, and something that is unique to our product and another first in pro touring bass amp gear... redundant preamp power supplies with automatic switchover. Just like almost all pro touring consoles. This means that if for some reason there is a failure in one power amplifier or supply, the full preamp, DI out and remaining module will continue to operate unaffected in failsafe mode.
I hope this helps with the understanding of some of the "how and whys" that all manufacturers are faced with when designing different products for YOUR market. No single product is ideally suited for every player, style and application. So, pick a product that suits your particular need.
To provide some perspective, and an educational opportunity, let me give some background in why LF rolloffs (HPF's) are used in most professional applications including virtually ALL PROFESSIONAL PA SYSTEMS up to and including arena touring rigs. I come from a pro audio design background, so of course this affects many of the details of our product... intentionally or otherwise.
For both bass reflex (vented or ported) cabnest as well as horn loaded cabinets, there is a point in the low frequency response where the driver begins to unload from the box (or decouple from the horn). At this point, there is a very significant lack of control of the driver by the box and the cone displacement begins to exceed what is safe for the mechanical suspension structure of the driver. Also, the sensitivity (SPL output for a given power input) falls off rapidly like jumping off a cliff. All that power goes to waste other than to cause damage to the driver(s). In the average to large sized bass cabinet this begins to happen around 40Hz-55Hz. In very large cabinets, or those with driver parameters that allow for extended LF tunings at the expense of efficiency/sensitivity, you may get to 32Hz but this would be quite rare. For comparison sake, a mid level 18" PA subwoofer is probably beginning to unload in the high 30's to low 40's. A full on pro sub (a quite large box, maybe 15 cubic ft per driver) will begin to unload in the low 30's or very high 20's. The mechanism with horn loaded bass boxes is different but is still related to the size of the horn mouth and the throat geometry and in general will be higher for a given sized box but the sensitivity will be higher as well... part of the horn tradeoff. Also, speaker power handling, while presented as a single number (say 500 watts "RMS") is really a series of ratings that vary with frequency. This 500 watt speaker may only have a (real) power rating of 200 watts at 35Hz and only 100 watts at 20Hz, one of the biggest causes of mechanical damage in (all manufacture's) bass cabinets. High pass filtering, especially high ordered filters, are an important part of protecting the drivers and improving the perceived tightness by maintaning better control of the cone under high powered use.
So, while the Shuttle 6.0 is intended (primarily) to be used with average to compact sized boxes which make up the majority of what's out there, a 38Hz HPF gives the best combination of performance to the majority of users in the intended application. With the LF extend voicing filter engaged, this functionally causes (along with other things) some shifting of the HPF down to ~36Hz... well below the unloading point of all modern COMPACT cabinets (like the 1 x 8" and 1 x 10") and plenty low for the vast majority of average sized bass cabinets on the market. Below this is the point of diminishing returns at this power level and cabinet size/type/rating.
The Shuttle 12.0 is intended as a step up in power, performance and features but as with everything in life trades off size, weight and price compared to the 6.0. The HPF has been stepped down about 1/4-octave and the LF extend variability can shift this down to about 26Hz when fully engaged (variable). This is below the limit of virtually all pro bass cabinets on the market. Of course, using the full LF Extend would not be adviseable with the compact cabinets or even many of the average cabinets unless they have substantial REAL power handling. Other features that come into play are the variable voicing filters (there was no room to put them on the 6.0 without making the 6.0 bigger), 4 band eq w/ 2 sweep mids, and something that is unique to our product and another first in pro touring bass amp gear... redundant preamp power supplies with automatic switchover. Just like almost all pro touring consoles. This means that if for some reason there is a failure in one power amplifier or supply, the full preamp, DI out and remaining module will continue to operate unaffected in failsafe mode.
I hope this helps with the understanding of some of the "how and whys" that all manufacturers are faced with when designing different products for YOUR market. No single product is ideally suited for every player, style and application. So, pick a product that suits your particular need.
I'd be all over this if it was bi-ampable.
It would be neat to see more integration of dsp technology into bass amps similar to ashdown's superfly or crown's xti series.
It would be neat to see more integration of dsp technology into bass amps similar to ashdown's superfly or crown's xti series.
Thank you, agedhorse and hasbeen, for all your insight into the design and marketing angles. This Max 12.0 looks very well thought out and designed. Many of us will be looking forward to its release at NAMM 2009 and the flood of reviews sure to follow when it hits the streets.
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