Extremes exactly. I was playing with lows & mids totally off yesterday (At 220K). Not harsh at all
Can we get a part 8??
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Genz Benz Streamliner Pt 7.....
- Thread starter Chef
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Extremes exactly. I was playing with lows & mids totally off yesterday (At 220K). Not harsh at all
Can we get a part 8??
That is one very notable aspect of this amp - you can push the EQ and gain levels right out to the edges, and still have useable tone.
I'm ready to pull the trigger on a Streamliner, but I can't decide on which one, 600 or 900. I am currently using a NEOX 212T cab which is 4ohm and 600watt RMS. So do I buy the 600 which on paper is a perfect match for the cabinet or do I opt for the 900 knowing I can't let it be all it could be without damaging the cab and/or amp. Is there any advantage to having the extra power on tap? Or are there any distinct differences between the two?
Obviously, I can't add another cab cause I'm already at max ohms for the amp. Decisions-decisions
Obviously, I can't add another cab cause I'm already at max ohms for the amp. Decisions-decisions
I'm ready to pull the trigger on a Streamliner, but I can't decide on which one, 600 or 900. I am currently using a NEOX 212T cab which is 4ohm and 600watt RMS. So do I buy the 600 which on paper is a perfect match for the cabinet or do I opt for the 900 knowing I can't let it be all it could be without damaging the cab and/or amp. Is there any advantage to having the extra power on tap? Or are there any distinct differences between the two?
Obviously, I can't add another cab cause I'm already at max ohms for the amp. Decisions-decisions
IMO, there are only two reasons to buy a Streamliner600 over the 900:
1) You are on a strict budget and don't have the extra $100 or whatever.
2) You play in contexts where you never really play loud at all, or always use a very small cabinet (i.e., jazz, folk playing, whatever).
It is best to ignore the cabinet power rating, which is just a loose guide on maximum safe wattage. You would have to have the 900 REALLY pushed to reach anywhere near that wattage output.
So, my typical longwinded way of saying.... 'get the 900', with that cab... period
Thanks kjung. That's pretty much what I was thinking. Just needed a sanity check before I order it. I believe I'll go with the 900.
Good job, Erik. I had the very same questions when I was gassing for the Streamliner, and I'm really glad I went ahead and shelled out the extra $100 for the 900. I did a Google search on speaker power ratings, and I found this page on the Crown power amp website where they give a guideline of how much power you can put into a speaker without worry of damage.
How much amplifier power do I need?
They basically say you can run about 2.5x the rated power of the speaker without worry. They say for light dance or voice, go for 1.6x the speaker's rating. For grunge/metal, they recommend 2.5x speaker rating. They say if you're using a limiter to prevent the power amp from clipping, you can use 2 to 4x the speaker's rating. So if your speaker is rated at 600W, IMO you could easily run at least 1200W from the amp. I concur that the Streamliner 900 won't pose any problems from this standpoint.
How much amplifier power do I need?
They basically say you can run about 2.5x the rated power of the speaker without worry. They say for light dance or voice, go for 1.6x the speaker's rating. For grunge/metal, they recommend 2.5x speaker rating. They say if you're using a limiter to prevent the power amp from clipping, you can use 2 to 4x the speaker's rating. So if your speaker is rated at 600W, IMO you could easily run at least 1200W from the amp. I concur that the Streamliner 900 won't pose any problems from this standpoint.
StickBass said:
Oy vey. While I agree in principle, this could be dangerous advice.
I'm currently using my SL900 to drive 500 watts worth of speakers at 4 ohms, and loving it. The extra headroom is a treat. However, it's important to note that if I push just a little too hard, I can get voice coil rattle with ease. Doing that on a regular basis would DEFINITELY fry the drivers.
IMO/IME, while you can safely push most cabs with a few hundred extra watts, that's ONLY if you have good ear for mechanical distress, and only push the envelope on occasional, momentary peaks.
IME, sustained, careless over-powering will kill your cabs...
macribas said:
Just talked to Jeff Genzler and we're swapping amps. As usual, stellar service from Genz Benz.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Thanks for this info Steve, there are a LOT of mis-understandings with regard to power handling... especially the notion that power hanfdling is a single convenient number.
In actuality, the MECHANICAL power handling of a speaker is based in part on frequency, and that as frequency decreases the power handling decreases. This is because there is less cabinet control of driver excursion. A general rule of thumb is that a speaker is good for around 2x the RMS rating of the speaker at the 0db LF point, the RMS rating at the -3dB LF point of the speaker and 1/2-RMS rating at the -10dB LF point. This is of course assuming a reasonable crest factor. Also, going much beyond the RMS rating, especially at lower frequencies, yields little additional performance SPL due to power compression from things like temp. increase of the VC, magnetic circuit non-linearities and increasing mechanical losses.
There is also the thermal power handling capacity of a speaker which is generally accepted as the RMS rating but this too can be derated depending on frequency anfd duty cycle of the bass signal.
If you are going to use greater than the RMS rated power of a speaker, I always recommend using common sense and some caution to be sure you do not try to get more out of the speaker than it's capable of producing safely.
Hope this helps.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Either Scott or I will look at it when it comes back to us, since the failures are so uncommon we (in engineering) like to analyze those that do come back to see what's really wrong. So far, it's been almost exclusively defective tubes and we use this data to improve our screening algorithems and ageing data.
Had another hour on my SL900 with my 3EQ Ray. The strings are wearing in nicely.
I must say, Im back to being very very happy with the amp.
Until yesterday, I hadnt tried to get a full 'grind' out of it.
I might put a video up of the Jekyl and Hyde of this amp.
One moment im in finger funk / motown mode, then mute, crank the gain, lower the volume, push the mids (600), add a little treble on the Ray, use the master carefully, and a pick. Complete and utter buzzsaw tube grind. Sounds great with a pic.
Cool amp. Definitely keeping it.
I must say, Im back to being very very happy with the amp.
Until yesterday, I hadnt tried to get a full 'grind' out of it.
I might put a video up of the Jekyl and Hyde of this amp.
One moment im in finger funk / motown mode, then mute, crank the gain, lower the volume, push the mids (600), add a little treble on the Ray, use the master carefully, and a pick. Complete and utter buzzsaw tube grind. Sounds great with a pic.
Cool amp. Definitely keeping it.
I'm ready to pull the trigger on a Streamliner, but I can't decide on which one, 600 or 900. I am currently using a NEOX 212T cab which is 4ohm and 600watt RMS. So do I buy the 600 which on paper is a perfect match for the cabinet or do I opt for the 900 knowing I can't let it be all it could be without damaging the cab and/or amp. Is there any advantage to having the extra power on tap? Or are there any distinct differences between the two?
Obviously, I can't add another cab cause I'm already at max ohms for the amp. Decisions-decisions
I have the 900 and the neox212t. A perfect match. The advantage is that I can also use my 900 with my Eden 6x10 xlt . This set up is unbelievably loud and dare I say better sounding than the Eden head I was using
People laugh at this setup when they see it, until I turn it on
Especially Neodymium speakers which are more sensitive to demagnetization than plain old speakers.
Between your power amp clip light and your ears, you should know if your speakers are hurting. If it makes a bad noise, don't do that.
This demagnetization you speak of, how does it happen? I don't know anything about these types of speakers. Does this mean they have a life expectancy?
I just ordered a SL900 and a 4 ohm Berg HS 410 from Bass Central today. I should have it by Thursday.
I'm not a primary source for this information, just retelling what I have heard.
Any magnet can be demagnetized by heating it up. Voice coils get hot when they are running. They get hottest when they are running near or over their designed power handling limits.
Neodymium speakers, especially the early ones, were criticized for having shorter lifespans than regular speakers (see the description of the Eden neo speakers on their own website) and I have heard that the magnets can get rusty in high-humidity environments. Also that they are more brittle than regular magnets. So, early Neo cabs had problems with cracking magnets, rusting magnets, and losing their dynamic range due to heat-related demagnetization.
I have heard that modern neo cabs have designed around the rusting and brittleness problems by sealing the magnets in epoxy, and have worked around heat problems with more heat-efficient cabinet designs.
Still, if I had neodymium speakers (and I do) I would take care to preserve them since they are more expensive and they're not going to get any cheaper.
China has cut back on neodymium exports so prices have been going up and a lot of speaker manufacturers are cutting out their neo products. The day may come when they are hard to find at anything like a reasonable price.
svtb15
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- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
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- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
Will leaving a NEO cab in the equipment truck that gets 140 degrees in the summer mess with the NEO speaker?
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