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Genz Benz Streamliner Pt 7.....

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Modern production Neo speakers do not suffer from any of these thermal problems. The problems have LONG since been solved with appropriate grades/alloys of Neo materials. The myths continue, however.
 
Will leaving a NEO cab in the equipment truck that gets 140 degrees in the summer mess with the NEO speaker?

I don't leave any of my equipment in an environment that I myself would not be comfortable in. I'm sure the heat has an effect on the glues that are holding that cab together. Even the speakers have glued/bonded parts. I would worry about that more than the magnets.
 
Modern production Neo speakers do not suffer from any of these thermal problems. The problems have LONG since been solved with appropriate grades/alloys of Neo materials. The myths continue, however.

With all due respect, and simply to avoid misunderstandings, I don't disagree with you and neither does my previous post.

Past tense was used here:
Neodymium speakers, especially the early ones, were criticized

Modern fixes were referenced here:
I have heard that modern neo cabs have designed around the rusting and brittleness problems by sealing the magnets in epoxy, and have worked around heat problems with more heat-efficient cabinet designs.

My reasons for taking special care of them are that they are expensive and probably going to get scarcer.
Still, if I had neodymium speakers (and I do) I would take care to preserve them since they are more expensive and they're not going to get any cheaper.

China has cut back on neodymium exports so prices have been going up and a lot of speaker manufacturers are cutting out their neo products. The day may come when they are hard to find at anything like a reasonable price.

The issues with Neodymium as a material are true problems. Folks don't engineer solutions to myths. That said, I'm sure some manufacturers have better solutions than others.

I have confidence that Genz Benz equipment is among the finest quality on the planet and I'm proud to own some of it.
 
The problem is not with the Neo materials that have been in use in speakers for the past 20 or so years, it was with the early experimental grades that were not suitable for applications such as motors (speaker drivers are in effect a form of linear motor). The solution was to develop appropriate grades for motor applications (and the temperatures that exist in such appliaction) and not more efficient cabinet designs.

The reason I feel the need to dispell such myths (it's a myth because it's a false belief based on an inaccurate understanding of the topic that is perpetuated by folks who continue to misunderstand it) is because I probably address this topic pretty often. The Curie point of the grades of Neo used in speaker magnet systems is probably over 300 degrees F, and when measuring the magnetic material temperature (the magnetic slug is not right next to the V.C. but buried between the return casting and the top plate/pole piece) is going to be somewhere between 120 and 150 degrees F when the speaker is operated at ~ the RMS rating or thermal limits of the speaker, and for bass applications the mechanical limits will be reached at roughly 25% of the thermal limits in the worst case crest factor application.

Regarding brittleness, the ferrite materials are at least as brittle and worse, they are externally exposed to damage. The neo slug is totally protected in a speaker application.

Corrosion is handled by various methods such as zinc plating, chromating (no longer common due to hex chrome issues), passivation, powder coating, painting, etc. It's not a problem except in the cheapest of speakers... not speakers that any of us in the bass amp industry would even consider using.
 
The problem is not with the Neo materials that have been in use in speakers for the past 20 or so years, it was with the early experimental grades that were not suitable for applications such as motors (speaker drivers are in effect a form of linear motor). The solution was to develop appropriate grades for motor applications (and the temperatures that exist in such appliaction) and not more efficient cabinet designs.

The reason I feel the need to dispell such myths (it's a myth because it's a false belief based on an inaccurate understanding of the topic that is perpetuated by folks who continue to misunderstand it) is because I probably address this topic pretty often. The Curie point of the grades of Neo used in speaker magnet systems is probably over 300 degrees F, and when measuring the magnetic material temperature (the magnetic slug is not right next to the V.C. but buried between the return casting and the top plate/pole piece) is going to be somewhere between 120 and 150 degrees F when the speaker is operated at ~ the RMS rating or thermal limits of the speaker, and for bass applications the mechanical limits will be reached at roughly 25% of the thermal limits in the worst case crest factor application.

Regarding brittleness, the ferrite materials are at least as brittle and worse, they are externally exposed to damage. The neo slug is totally protected in a speaker application.

Corrosion is handled by various methods such as zinc plating, chromating (no longer common due to hex chrome issues), passivation, powder coating, painting, etc. It's not a problem except in the cheapest of speakers... not speakers that any of us in the bass amp industry would even consider using.

Thanks for increasing my understanding. I appreciate your sharing your knowledge.
 
thanks all for the wisdom, I also red some of this false points in the years. The thing that surprises me, on the other side of the discussion, is the difference in performance of some products that seem (SEEM) to go beyond physical limits, wich is obviously not possible as a concept.
For example last week did a loud rock gig outdoors, competing with 3 guitars, amplified drums and keys, using my STM900 against some thousand PA without support. In some moments I saw the peak led barely flashing. Even if I know that the amp at that point is comfortable I just turned down a bit but the point is that my speaker system, officially reted at 800 watt, produced no mechanical signs of struggling at any point of the performance. I have a rather good ear, making a lot of sound reinforcement, editing and studio mastering for some bands, and in that occasion (and others) I have the cab at ear level, the systems worked flawlessy, no signs of reaching the excursion limit of the driver. The rules help us to run our amp safely, help us to use that bit of conscious judgement when using frequencies, watts and so on, but sometimes our job is made easier by well engineered products....ops, sorry, I lost the point...sorry

The problem is not with the Neo materials that have been in use in speakers for the past 20 or so years, it was with the early experimental grades that were not suitable for applications such as motors (speaker drivers are in effect a form of linear motor). The solution was to develop appropriate grades for motor applications (and the temperatures that exist in such appliaction) and not more efficient cabinet designs.

The reason I feel the need to dispell such myths (it's a myth because it's a false belief based on an inaccurate understanding of the topic that is perpetuated by folks who continue to misunderstand it) is because I probably address this topic pretty often. The Curie point of the grades of Neo used in speaker magnet systems is probably over 300 degrees F, and when measuring the magnetic material temperature (the magnetic slug is not right next to the V.C. but buried between the return casting and the top plate/pole piece) is going to be somewhere between 120 and 150 degrees F when the speaker is operated at ~ the RMS rating or thermal limits of the speaker, and for bass applications the mechanical limits will be reached at roughly 25% of the thermal limits in the worst case crest factor application.

Regarding brittleness, the ferrite materials are at least as brittle and worse, they are externally exposed to damage. The neo slug is totally protected in a speaker application.

Corrosion is handled by various methods such as zinc plating, chromating (no longer common due to hex chrome issues), passivation, powder coating, painting, etc. It's not a problem except in the cheapest of speakers... not speakers that any of us in the bass amp industry would even consider using.
 
When on tour I do not have a choice really. My gear rides in the trucks with the crew guys. My gear is parked in Houston at the sound companies lot since this week on a tome off period . It has been in the 100+ degrees outside, and trucks must be hot inside.
But agehorse already helped. Thank you Andy for your speedy reply.
seansbrew said:
I don't leave any of my equipment in an environment that I myself would not be comfortable in. I'm sure the heat has an effect on the glues that are holding that cab together. Even the speakers have glued/bonded parts. I would worry about that more than the magnets.
 
agedhorse said:
Thanks for this info Steve, there are a LOT of mis-understandings with regard to power handling... especially the notion that power hanfdling is a single convenient number.

In actuality, the MECHANICAL power handling of a speaker is based in part on frequency, and that as frequency decreases the power handling decreases. This is because there is less cabinet control of driver excursion. A general rule of thumb is that a speaker is good for around 2x the RMS rating of the speaker at the 0db LF point, the RMS rating at the -3dB LF point of the speaker and 1/2-RMS rating at the -10dB LF point. This is of course assuming a reasonable crest factor. Also, going much beyond the RMS rating, especially at lower frequencies, yields little additional performance SPL due to power compression from things like temp. increase of the VC, magnetic circuit non-linearities and increasing mechanical losses.

There is also the thermal power handling capacity of a speaker which is generally accepted as the RMS rating but this too can be derated depending on frequency anfd duty cycle of the bass signal.

If you are going to use greater than the RMS rated power of a speaker, I always recommend using common sense and some caution to be sure you do not try to get more out of the speaker than it's capable of producing safely.

Hope this helps.

Thank you Andy , great info. Mods should make your post a sticky
 
So, all you tube rollers out there, is there any consensus on good all-around tubes for the 900? I doubt I'll do much rolling, but if there's a way I can get just a bit more gritty overdrive without altering the basic characteristics, I may swap one out. I'm not really into getting three separate custom tubes, prolly just one (in V1 I guess) will do. I'll prolly pick up a couple as spares, maybe roll one into V1. Telefunken? Mullard?
 
StickBass said:
...is there any consensus on good all-around tubes for the 900? ...if there's a way I can get just a bit more gritty overdrive without altering the basic characteristics, I may swap one out.

A few of us have fooled around with V2/V3, in efforts to adjust the response of the EQ section. Some have gone NOS in V1 and reported an overall improvement in tone. Others have decided that they prefer the stock combo.

In other words, not enough data for a consensus. There is a dedicated thread, where we're trying to build that kind of information, though. Search by subject only, for Streamliner Tube Rolling.
 
When on tour I do not have a choice really. My gear rides in the trucks with the crew guys. My gear is parked in Houston at the sound companies lot since this week on a tome off period . It has been in the 100+ degrees outside, and trucks must be hot inside.
But agehorse already helped. Thank you Andy for your speedy reply.

I guess if you don't have a choice, but your equipment is still holding up, than that is good to know. I'm sure manufacturers of this kind of equipment take that into consideration.
 
I guess if you don't have a choice, but your equipment is still holding up, than that is good to know. I'm sure manufacturers of this kind of equipment take that into consideration.

I think the weakness in your logic/concern is that you are assuming that the modest temperature range that human beings can endure is in any way representative of electronic equipment.

I guess extreme humidity can be an issue with drivers, and also going from sub freezing temperatures to 'on' within a few minutes. Otherwise, IME no big deal.
 
I think the weakness in your logic/concern is that you are assuming that the modest temperature range that human beings can endure is in any way representative of electronic equipment.

I guess extreme humidity can be an issue with drivers, and also going from sub freezing temperatures to 'on' within a few minutes. Otherwise, IME no big deal.

K Jung, I didn't say anything about electronic components. I am referring to the most susceptible materials used in cab construction.

I live in AZ where the interior temperature of a car can reach 160 deg. F.

The interior of my car takes a beating. The Dashboards are warped, headliners fall off, glue becomes brittle.

I don't think it is a bad idea to bring my cabinets inside where the temperature differential can be as much as 80 deg.
 
K Jung, I didn't say anything about electronic components. I am referring to the most susceptible materials used in cab construction.

I live in AZ where the interior temperature of a car can reach 160 deg. F.

The interior of my car takes a beating. The Dashboards are warped, headliners fall off, glue becomes brittle.

I don't think it is a bad idea to bring my cabinets inside where the temperature differential can be as much as 80 deg.

That is pretty extreme. I would guess that the direct sunlight would have more impact than the absolute temp like in a closed up equipment van, but I agree, in that extreme situation, I would take my cab and amp in whenever I could.
 
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