Genzler Amplification Club

[agedhorse]

There are significant differences purely due to the length of the array.

There is the additional impact of the waveguide and horn flair which greatly impacts the pattern control.

This is necessary for the array results to be variable (by position and electrically) for the application’s needs.

There are two different approaches to high frequency reproduction of a line array, a waveguide with a tight vertical pattern and smaller amounts of overlap, and a wider vertical pattern with a predictable overlap. Both methods can work very well and there are successful examples of both in the pro audio world.

Since the bass array mid section does not use a waveguide, it falls in the wider vertical pattern method, which tends to be less “fiddly” over all and is a better choice where the system does not have variable angles between elements, or very long lengths. This is one of the benefits of the wider vertical pattern method IME.

 

[Jamvan]

I have two BA210-3 SLT that work beautifully. The array system is wonderful for hearing on stage. I have twice propped up the rear of the top cab with a small foam block by a couple of inches to “flatten” the front face of the stack to see if it made a difference in how the tones/frequencies/volume/articulation etc are perceived. It may be due to my tired ears, but I hear absolutely no difference in performance of the array when the front face of the stack is “flattened” in this manner.

In fact, look at many of the array systems used for PAs. They often have a quite pronounced curve to the front.
View attachment 6999344
Maybe I am missing something and there are differences in the requirements and performance of large PA system arrays vs the array of a bass amp stack? Based on my experiments with bass cabbage at least, I’ve concluded (at least for my purposes, and in the venues where I play), that while the array is a fantastic design, I have not heard the value of flattening the front facing side of an array stack. Perhaps its an audiophile thing that can be proven in more detailed tests to be valuable, but to a common listener such as myself is unnecessary?

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong. Just personal preference. I started with the 15 and as the cash outlay for the second cab wasn’t chump change, I went with what Jeff recommended plus the fact I preferred a less steep angle for the amp and anything else I set on top of the cabs (iPad, keys, spare transmitter, etc).

EDIT: Ok. These is a wrong and right.

 

[Jeff Genzler]

I have two BA210-3 SLT that work beautifully. The array system is wonderful for hearing on stage. I have twice propped up the rear of the top cab with a small foam block by a couple of inches to “flatten” the front face of the stack to see if it made a difference in how the tones/frequencies/volume/articulation etc are perceived. It may be due to my tired ears, but I hear absolutely no difference in performance of the array when the front face of the stack is “flattened” in this manner.

In fact, look at many of the array systems used for PAs. They often have a quite pronounced curve to the front.
View attachment 6999344
Maybe I am missing something and there are differences in the requirements and performance of large PA system arrays vs the array of a bass amp stack? Based on my experiments with bass cabbage at least, I’ve concluded (at least for my purposes, and in the venues where I play), that while the array is a fantastic design, I have not heard the value of flattening the front facing side of an array stack. Perhaps its an audiophile thing that can be proven in more detailed tests to be valuable, but to a common listener such as myself is unnecessary?

@ Luckydog --- Interesting observations. I would ask, where are you listening from? Distance from the stack and off axis positioning will have an impact.
Getting about 15 feet or more in front might be interesting.
As we've tested identical stacks with SLT/STR cabs and SLT/SLT stacks, I've found there is a little more of an immediate impact of the notes when both baffles are in the same plane, like a SLT/STR stack. With a SLT/SLT stack you would experience more vertical dispersion out into the venue.
And certainly I think this could vary somewhat with the shape of the room and stage position.
I will say, I've not tried the SLT/SLT stack and then flatten out the top cabinet as you describe with a block in the back.
Something to try soon.

 

[Loring]

The array part of the speaker gives you horizontal dispersion.

The slant part does two things - eliminates standing waves within the enclosure to give a tighter sounding representation and aims the sound upwards slightly towards your ear.

By putting the slant on the bottom both speakers are projecting on the same plane towards your ears. If you put the straight on the bottom you will mostly hear the slt on top.

Courses for horses but I do prefer mine with the slt on the bottom.

 

[agedhorse]

The array controls and modifies the vertical pattern, the driver geometry (plus any waveguide or horn flair) define both the horizontal and vertical pattern.

There are multiple things going on simultaneously depending on whether a waveguide is used. In this case there is no waveguide so the vertical pattern is defined by the number of array elements, the height of the array and the frequency range. The vertical pattern control of frequency dependent too.

 

[Parzival]

I’m convinced my BA 115 and 210 could sit on the floor with no tilt and I would still hear them fine.

 

[Luckydog]

@ Luckydog --- Interesting observations. I would ask, where are you listening from? Distance from the stack and off axis positioning will have an impact.
Getting about 15 feet or more in front might be interesting.
As we've tested identical stacks with SLT/STR cabs and SLT/SLT stacks, I've found there is a little more of an immediate impact of the notes when both baffles are in the same plane, like a SLT/STR stack. With a SLT/SLT stack you would experience more vertical dispersion out into the venue.
And certainly I think this could vary somewhat with the shape of the room and stage position.
I will say, I've not tried the SLT/SLT stack and then flatten out the top cabinet as you describe with a block in the back.
Something to try soon.

Hi Jeff, I’m usually no more than 8 feet forward or 4 feet to the side. What you're saying makes absolute sense and you explained it very well I think. Maybe I’ll head out with the wireless.

 

[57pbass]

The Genzler Benz works well with the Bag End cabs.. multiple shows and it always delivers the goods.

 

[Jamvan]

Standing at attention.

 

[Lammchop93]

Here is a pic of me and my rig from my bands first all original show last week. It was a great time and I'm really proud of how we sounded. This is the first time I've done an original band, and I got to say it's really challenging, but rewarding to play.

My genzler cabs sounded so good! It was an indoor venue, but with garage doors that were open. I had a little sound through the PA, but the cabs did the bulk of the work

 

[erhoth]

This weekend's gig rig!!

 

[5StringPocket]

This weekend's gig rig!!View attachment 7004086

Nice rig, I bet that sounds excellent!

 

[jjk2007]

This weekend's gig rig!!View attachment 7004086

Everything looks primo……except that bass is missing a string!

 

[Timmy-Watts]

Ok, finally picked up a Kinetix to pair with my MG-212t. I had been using a Mesa WD-800, had to sell that for financial reasons, and been surviving with my backup amp, an Acoustic Image Clarus SL.

MAN, the amp is my favorite to date.

I do have a couple questions, and could not find the answers in a manual or anywhere else.

Is there a schematic somewhere? I’m curious where in the circuit the lean/fat/thick switch lies, and if that switch is part of the pre- direct output. Is it before or after the tube input stage, before or after the EQ? The pre-output, is it right after the buffer? The HPF switch? Is it after the input tube but before the EQ?

Thanks in advance.

I plan on at least sometimes running my sub harmonic synthesizer.

 

[EricOnTheBass]

The Genzler Benz works well with the Bag End cabs.. multiple shows and it always delivers the goods.
View attachment 7000187

Sorry for going off-topic, but that bass is gorgeous! I love the non-rectangular shapes of the pickups and bridge.

 

[57pbass]

Sorry for going off-topic, but that bass is gorgeous! I love the non-rectangular shapes of the pickups and bridge.

Thank you.
The LeFay instruments are world class.. perfection from top to bottom.
And they sound amazing.

 

[Jeff Genzler]

Ok, finally picked up a Kinetix to pair with my MG-212t. I had been using a Mesa WD-800, had to sell that for financial reasons, and been surviving with my backup amp, an Acoustic Image Clarus SL.

MAN, the amp is my favorite to date.

I do have a couple questions, and could not find the answers in a manual or anywhere else.

Is there a schematic somewhere? I’m curious where in the circuit the lean/fat/thick switch lies, and if that switch is part of the pre- direct output. Is it before or after the tube input stage, before or after the EQ? The pre-output, is it right after the buffer? The HPF switch? Is it after the input tube but before the EQ?

Thanks in advance.

I plan on at least sometimes running my sub harmonic synthesizer.

@ Timmy-Watts --- Thank you for using our gear. So glad you're enjoying the KINETIX 800. Regarding some of your questions, let me provide some information. There is no schematic availale to the publice....sorry on that point. The PRE-DI signal is right off the input buffer tube stage so there is nothing in the signal chain from the preamp with the DI in PRE position. In the DI POST position, yes everything on the preamp is active to the DI signal. the LEAN/FAT/THICK circut is before the EQ. The HPF is a little more complex as it is also part of the 3-position LEAN/FAT/THICK settings.

I hope this information is helpful. Feel free to email me or send a PM with any specific questions to your set up.

 

[Timmy-Watts]

@ Timmy-Watts --- Thank you for using our gear. So glad you're enjoying the KINETIX 800. Regarding some of your questions, let me provide some information. There is no schematic availale to the publice....sorry on that point. The PRE-DI signal is right off the input buffer tube stage so there is nothing in the signal chain from the preamp with the DI in PRE position. In the DI POST position, yes everything on the preamp is active to the DI signal. the LEAN/FAT/THICK circut is before the EQ. The HPF is a little more complex as it is also part of the 3-position LEAN/FAT/THICK settings.

I hope this information is helpful. Feel free to email me or send a PM with any specific questions to your set up.

Jeff- thank you for giving this information. From your descriptions, I would say it really nails spot on, your design goals. Your concept would be a perfect description of what you achieved with this amp, and falls right in line with my amp goals. I was just wondering if any of that sweet tuber goodness is going to the to the PA if the switch is on pre mode. So if I am understanding it right, my pre-out is just raw bass taken right from the input, before the driven input tube. But… there is a tube also on the XLR out as well? Is that one a “clean only” tube, like a Noble would function?

 

[Jeff Genzler]

@Timmy-Watts ----- Just clarify, with the DI set to PRE setting you ARE getting a tube driven send to the DI. This is coming from the Input circuitry of the amp, directly off the first tube stage, so with any signal sent through the DI the signal is tube driven. Thre is not a tube in the DI circuit itself as the signal is already tube driven from the input stage of the amp, on the front panel.
And in the POST mode you would be adding the entire 3-tube preamp circuitry, with BOOST, LEAN/FAT/THICK settings and all EQ circuits.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[kaiser_sosea]

Quick question for those of you with Kinetix. I've used mine on a handful of gigs now and I've noticed that it feels like when I play runs or fills into the higher register of the bass I get completely lost in the mix. My pickups and tone are dimed on my Lakland PJ, I have the BA10-2 Series 2 cabinets and have never had issues hearing the bass in the mix before. I've eq'd some bass out and tried the lean setting while boosting mids & highs. I don't know if its a me thing but I've had a lot of Genz & Genzler gear over the years and never experienced this before. Last Genzler amp was Magellan 350 that I then Sold toward Mesa WD-800 which I then sold in favor of Kinetix. I love the amp and it's simplicity but can't get over the feeling I"m missing something or something is wrong with my setup. I'm typically cutting highs and mids.

Just wanted to follow up on this as I believe the culprit in this case was me attending a Modest Mouse & Pixies show the night before the gig in question. I think my ears were fatigued. We took a month off from gigging and have played a handful in the past few weeks and I feel like I really have it dialed in now with my PJ. I love the tone and feel of the Kinetix and running through 3 x BA10-2 cabs is plenty loud for any gig I'll ever play that doesn't have PA support.

Now just hoping to stumble across a NeoPak for my practice/backup rig for a little nostalgia.