Getting improved note definition

[JimmyM]

It's not just about bass and treble, it's also about midrange. Sometimes you might need to add some of it, too. Those are the frequencies that give you the note definition. And then you can take away treble that makes it too tinny. Another thing that might help is playing closer to the bridge.

 

[micguy]

The thing (Acoustical Physics perspective) in your rig that messes up the low end the most is your cabinet/room combination. Most bass amp cabinets don't really do a good job with the low notes on a bass guitar, and when you add in the way your amp couples to the room, which is a crapshoot at best, what you usually get is ill defined low end..

Most of my gigs, I'm hearing myself through in ears (which don't have the limits of bass guitar cabinets), and playing through a decent PA (most PA subs do much better at reproducing those low frequencies).

Within the limits of what your amp can do, managing the mids can help. Most bass guitars, due to the pickup position(s) over emphasize the low mids - it's a wavelength thing, I'll leave the Physics lecture out for brevity. I tend to cut around 300Hz, but usually add in some upper mids (1.5 kHz or thereabouts). That, to my ears, cleans things up considerably.

 

[Al Kraft]

Have you ever (pre-COVID-19) tried taking your bass to a music store and seeing what different amps and cabs do for your tone? You have some nice gear and to have such an annoying problem with lower notes seems a bit inconsistent with what I've read on TB from people using that equipment.

I would try to fully eliminate any bass guitar (including set-up) and string issues before launching into an experiment involving thousands of dollars of amps and cabs. And before heading down the new amp and cab route I would also consider a $100 investment in a variable HPF first.

In terms of thinking through this, did your current amp/cab gear sound okay when you decided to buy it, and were you using the same bass and strings? It almost seems like something you liked when you bought your current amp/cab has changed, or maybe your style of playing is different - it's also possible that what you listen for and/or like is different. I would go about discovering the answer to those questions by hitting the simplest and cheapest stuff first. Explore one thing at a time and go from there to the next (e.g. technique and style are free, strings are pretty cheap, guitar set-up is also relatively cheap compared to amps and cabs, etc.).

I hope that was helpful, or at least gives you a new/different perspective as you think through the problem.

 

[Thegrandwazoo]

A high-pass filter might just go a long way toward solving what I believe you to be describing. I've used them, usually find ways to do without one, but am probably about to start using one again.

 

[1funkybasslady]

You know, a whole lot of that low note clarity comes from the cabinet. It's a lot easier to make an amp that will clearly produce those signals than it is to make a cab that will replicate them. I've used Eden amps since ~2008 and even my Eden Nemesis RS400 (was Eden's mid-price line) gives really clear lows. I ran that through an acoustic B410+a GK115bpx. That GK is a muddy, boomy cab and I had to drop the bass EQ down to about 10:30 to clear it up. In 2010 I got an Eden WT500/800 directly from the Eden founder hisownself. It has two power channels, so I just put one cab in each one and then used the "Balance" knob to adjust the mix of sound I got out of them. This sounded better yet because I didn't have to cut the bass EQ, which the acoustic B410 sorely needed to sound good by itself. That worked pretty nice until 2015.

In 2015 I finally bought a DNS-410 by DNA. David Nordschow founded Eden in 1976. He sold it to USM in 2008 and in 2009 he left Eden entirely. In 2010 he brought the first new products out from his new company DNA (David Nordschow Amplification). First time I plugged my WT500/800 into my DNS-410 I was amazed at the clarity of the cab and the fact that it had a very tight and full bottom end. It is also crazy loud. It will handle 1400-watts both mechanically and thermally, and I feed it with my Eden amp bridged at 800-watts. I can't even turn the master of my amp up past 9:30 indoors without shoving people out the door. I can run it up to 10 o'clock at outdoor festivals, but if I push it to 10:30 I get told to turn down.

I had to take my WT500/800 into the tech once and used my RS400 in the meantime. That RS400 putts out 400-watts a 4 ohms, but only 275-watts at 8 ohms. I did turn it up a full hour notch more than my other amp, but even with just that small amount of power it was plenty loud and still had that very tight and full bottom end - my RS400 never sounded so good!

The note definition on these cabs (I also have a DNS-210 now) is amazing as is their articulation. I could take those same amps and apply them to a lot cabs and I won't (don't) get anywhere near the clarity and articulation I get with my DNS cabs. They actually make you clean up your techniques because you will hear every mistake you play through them very clearly.

Street price on those though is ~$1,049, so they're not cheap. The next closest cab I've hear for articulation and clarity are the Eden XST cabs. Those are actually more expensive than the DNA cabs now that Marshall's cabinet shop makes the cabs. They also have that tight and low bottom end. Eden's XLT cabs have a mid-hump that gives them great definition and warmth, but the bottom end in those isn't as tight and doesn't go as low as their XST cabs. If you are buying new, get the DNA. If you're buying used and can find it, also by a DNA Cab. If you can't find one, you can often find Eden's XST cabs for around $500 to $600 used and those are still excellent cabs that will give you the clarity you're looking for.

By the way, I'm playing a passive Jazz with all controls (V,V,T) turned all the way. The amp is set flat except for a little low-mid boost at ~250Hz (gets close to that Eden XLT sound). Enhance knob is off, and auto-compressor is bypassed.

Thanks so much for all the info. A friend of mine has an Eden combo amp — I think it is a 210 — and she likes it a lot. I’ll have to ask her to let me try it.

I’ll have to take a look at the DNA. I’m not familiar with that brand at all, but from what you are saying, it seems it might just be worth a hard look/listen. I agree that the Cab has a huge impact on tone as do the speakers. The cabs I have, and have been trying, are all light weight jobs made of poplar loaded with neodymium speakers. They are appealing in terms of their light weight/portability, however, I am now wondering if those weight-saving measures have resulted in inferior low end response lacking definition. I am impressed by the Mesa Boogie WD-800 Subway amp, so perhaps marrying it with a DNA DNS-210 will give me what I’m looking for. Of course I’ll also look into the Mesa Boogie cabs too. I only play small venues, so I don’t need enough power to blow the house down, but I still want plenty of warm, tight, defined bottom end. I am also wondering about the speaker size and it’s effect on note definition. I have always thought 15” spkrs are too flubby. 1x12’s don’t give enough low end, 2x10’s give better definition, and 4x10’s are wonderful, but they weigh a ton, and I don’t have a roadie! I have to schlep my gear by own mine self!

Thanks again for the suggestions. Will have to see about the DNA’s. Hopefully there is a dealer in SoCal so I can actually demo one.

 

[1funkybasslady]

A high-pass filter might just go a long way toward solving what I believe you to be describing. I've used them, usually find ways to do without one, but am probably about to start using one again.

A high-pass filter might just go a long way toward solving what I believe you to be describing. I've used them, usually find ways to do without one, but am probably about to start using one again.

Interesting idea. Any suggestions as to brand/model?

 

[mambo4]

I have tried playing with all the EQ frequencies on the amp as well as with the EQ’s on the bass. Just can’t get what my ear is craving.

It's not just about bass and treble, it's also about midrange

A high-pass filter might just go a long way toward solving what I believe you to be describing.

Agreed^

Want inarticulate boomy mud? crank that bass knob!
The job of the bass knob is really low end reduction , it is mainly to be used subtractively.
Removing The sub 100 hz muddy boom is why so many swear by High Pass Filters

The counter intuitive truth of bass tone control is that the bass knob has zero to do with a punchy low end.
Punchy, articulate bass tone is the job of the mids or low mids , controlling 250-1000 hz.
Seek gear that gives you options for those ranges.

 

[1funkybasslady]

I gotta agree with bass set up.

I found neck adjustment as well as bridge adjustment gets rid of the problems you describe. Having the action too low creates these problems. The strings need room to vibrate yet be easy for your fingers to press down.

Re- intonate once the strings are set.

Good luck!

Hmm...I’ll have to think about that one. I don’t think the action is all that low on my basses, but perhaps my pups are too high?? Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[1funkybasslady]

Agreed^

Want inarticulate boomy mud? crank that bass knob!
The job of the bass knob is really low end reduction , it is mainly to be used subtractively.
Removing The sub 100 hz muddy boom is why so many swear by High Pass Filters

The counter intuitive truth of bass tone control is that the bass knob has zero to do with a punchy low end.
Punchy, articulate bass tone is the job of the mids or low mids , controlling 250-1000 hz.
Seek gear that gives you options for those ranges.

Thank you for that! I have adjusted the bass tone control subtractively, but it seems that I have to do it to the point where I lose that low end grunt I so love. I’ll have to fiddle a little more with those mids and low mids. I don’t like what the high mids do to the tone, so I basically dial it down to about 10-11 o’clock.

I’ll also look into a high pass filter. Do you have a suggestion as to brand/model?

 

[mambo4]

Don't use a HPF myself. m usual recipe is to leave the lows an highs flat at 12 oclock
( not literally flat EQ, depends of the how the amp is designed)
and Try to bump somewhere between 350 -500 hz.
closer to 350 for old school thump
for aggressive rock sometimes closer to 1000 hz.

note that these settings are born out of experimenting and listening in a live gigging situation
and solo listening may not sound as magical as you hope. The mix is all that matters.

 

[Stumbo]

... I’ll also look into a high pass filter. Do you have a suggestion as to brand/model?

Broughton always-on is well regarded and reasonbly priced.

HPF/LPF list- which do you use or know about?

 

[byacey]

It's not just about bass and treble, it's also about midrange. Sometimes you might need to add some of it, too. Those are the frequencies that give you the note definition. And then you can take away treble that makes it too tinny. Another thing that might help is playing closer to the bridge.

600 to 800 Hz will bring out the definition, this is where the punch resides; dial back the lows below 100Hz until it starts thinning out, and just bring it back up slightly. Too much low just muddles things up.

 

[Jeff Scott]

The next problem I’d like some help with is that of getting nice fat lows with good definition — i.e. “tight” low end response.

Aren't those the opposite of each other?

 

[RudyTardy]

I second all the suggestions on HPF, midrange EQ and string choice. Before you invest in anything, check your room. Frequency masking is a powerful thing. If your solo "bedroom tone" is boomy and undefined with the amp set flat, this is highly likely to be a room boundary issue. The spot where you are sitting could be a massive node where low end is building up and drowning out the definition of your notes. If you happen to have a looper, try recording something in the first position and walk around the room while it plays.

If that isn't the problem, a few simple things could be your friend. Subtractive EQ: 200Hz can sometimes be your enemy. Try tucking it just a few dB and see if the 300-800Hz area starts to sing more without making your bass sound honky.

The other trick, commonly employed by record mixers, is saturation. Old school method was hitting preamps or tape slightly harder to get even or odd harmonics on top of the fundamental. In the context of the track, you never hear distortion but when you solo, it's got hair all over it. The notes sound big, fat and full without drowning out the kick drum. In todays world, there are endless light OD pedals that can help bring out the mids in a natural, pleasing way.

If you are up for more experimenting, try some DR Nickel Lo Riders on your jazz. Even with a scooped amp, they ring beautifully in the midrange and have super tight low end response. Good luck and keep us posted on the tone journey!

 

[Papuzzo]

I think you can get most of what you want just by putting a set of GHS Pressurewounds on your bass. These strings are great for stuff where you really want emphasis on the fundamental but with enough mids and highs to produce note clarity.

Then, as another has already said, where you pluck the string is important to overall tone. Plucking toward the neck gives a lot of boom, whereas plucking closer to the bridge produces much less boom with more note articulation. Moving around with your plucking hand controls tone much more than you would think.

 

[el murdoque]

Here's what I did so far to tackle this problem:
-Playing a bass that is good 'down there'. Obvious. There are some basses that really kill it further up the fret board but they do not really perform that well on the first few notes.
-Effects I use are a HPF and a comp. The HPF is set to 55 Hz and the comp does peak limiting. It won't do anything when I play softly. It starts when I play with medium strength.
-The amp I use is capable of a lot more than I ask it to do - there is not the least bit of strain on either the cabs or the power amp.
-My EQ has a slight (a little goes a long way here) bump at 40 Hz. Most of that gets eaten by the HPF, but this makes sure that my EQ curve starts with a tiny bump rather than flat. The next thing I do is cut back a bit on the treble end, where the sliding noise and the clank are, to take the edge off them.
That leaves the mids and they need to be adjusted for the room. I often leave them completely flat.
-The master is set fairly high - and that is why the compressor is there. If I dug in without peak limiting, the bass would drown out the rest.
-I play with a soft touch with my hand mostly between the neck PU and the fretboard. Too far up and the notes get muddy, too far down and they lack the oomph.

I am not there yet, but all of the above helped me along the way.

 

[Wasnex]

Aren't those the opposite of each other?

To some degree yes. Crank up the lows and the diffuse field can build up and mask everything. So you have to strike a compromise between clarity and fat. This is why I mentioned acoustics first in my little diatribe .

IMHO, real-world acoustics severely limit our ability to achieve the desired tone, especially if you like nice tight, focused lows.

Probably one of the best things one can do is recognize the impossible task of overcoming bad acoustics with available tools, and develop reasonable expectations. The correct fix to a boomy hall is acoustic design and treatment, but all we have is the ability to aim our speakers, instrumental technique, EQ, choice of strings and instruments, compression, etc. These tools can help, but if the acoustics are really bad, acoustic design and treatment is really the only solution.

My advice is learn how your gear works and also learn a bit about acoustics, so you know what to do and what is reasonably possible. At the gig sight spend some time dialing your sound in as good as it can be, and then accept reality and make the best of it. Those who fail to do this will spend their time fidgeting with their controls and getting frustrated instead of grooving and getting the job done.

There have been some gigs I have done in halls with really poor acoustics where the best strategy was simply to turn down, smile, and dream about the next gig. Turning up would have covered everything with muddy bass, and I would have been just as frustrated with the awful sound as I was struggling to hear myself. When the acoustic are this bad, IMHO you put on a happy face for the audience and try to do as little damage as possible. Luckily it's rarely that bad, but it does happen from time to time.

 

[crazyBassClown]

My recommendation:
get yourself a boss bass equalizer pedal, and experiment with each slider in turn to see what it does to your sound. I personally prefer the older ge7b but the newer one works too.

 

[Father Gino]

Don’t buy any more gear until you figure out what’s going on. Unless there’s something horribly wrong with the gear you have, there should be a way to make it better with what you’ve got. A new amp or speaker might Or might not make a difference but it won’t address what the fundamental issue really is. It’s really hard to tell what you’re perceiving the problem to be without hearing it and knowing what kind of overall tone you’re going after.

my two cents would be to set everything more ore less flat on amp and bass and then try moving the cab around to see what difference that makes. Taking the speaker off the floor is a start as well as how far it is placed from a wall. The acoustic properties of the room can easily muddy up the low end. So can how and where you pluck the strings. Try a pick and see what that does even if you never want to really use it.

I disagree with worrying about a tweeter. You should be able to discern the lower notes just fine with no tweeter at all

 

[Bander]

If you try out several basses, some will have a clearer E string. If you try out several amp rigs, some will flatter the E string. I look for E string clarity first. Also try the A string, and compare with the A position on the E string. After lots of setup and string matching, I still find some basses have a better low end than others. And yes, pitch perception is a primary quality for me, in the low end. I'll change electronics and pickups on a guitar to improve it, and suit my taste, but on a bass, I just move on to another bass.