Getting improved note definition

[1funkybasslady]

I recently posted a question about how to eliminate excessive harmonics when playing at 5th and 7th fret positions. Got some good suggestions which I will work on.

The next problem I’d like some help with is that of getting nice fat lows with good definition — i.e. “tight” low end response. It seems like when I play down the neck — toward the nut — the notes turn to mud making it impossible for my ear to hear whole and half steps. In other words, every note sounds the same, or at the very least they sound like the intonation is way off. Yes, I check intonation with a Peterson tuner! I have tried rolling off the bass EQ settings, increasing the trebles while using the J pups and rolling off the P pups. As a result I end up with a tone that is, for my taste, too trebly. I want defined, tight low end punch as well as clean high end pop. I can get the high end definition, but the low end is mud and ill-defined note-wise.

I have tried playing with all the EQ frequencies on the amp as well as with the EQ’s on the bass. Just can’t get what my ear is craving. I’m wondering if an amp like the the Mesa Boogie WD-800 Subway + cab would do the trick since that amp is SO adjustable. I just don’t want to lay out the big bucks only to have the same problem rear its ugly head. I have a MarkBass 121P, the latest Fender Rumble 500 (2X10), and at one point I also ran the MarkBass thru a 410 extension cab. I also had an original SWR Super Red Head. I have just not been able to dial in “that sound.” Any help would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. I guess I should have added that I want to be able to play nice walking bass lines with great pitch definition as well as classic rock and funk slap and pop.

 

[MrLenny1]

IME the EQ usually does it all. Some amp & cabs
have a specific tone to them. I would start with new strings.
And work your way up, try renting a cab to really work with it
before buying. Find the tone is a work.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

EVERYTHING affects this, beginning with whether you use a pick or fingers
next is the strings, & immediately after that is the pickups
of course the speakers & cabinet matter, as well as the amp
Good Luck!

You can plug a muddy bass into a clean & clear amp & get mud, or you can plug a crystal clear sounding bass into a muddy amp/cab & get similar results.

 

[Nighttrain1127]

It is amazing how much mud an HPF can clean up and that helps definition and punch

 

[Killing Floor]

What strings are you using?

And a new amp fixes everything for a couple weeks anyway.

 

[Wasnex]

Odds are, the problem relates to acoustics, dispersion, and the way you setup your speakers.

Acoustics: Many live environments present a substandard acoustic space where reverberant energy builds up. Here is a page with definitions sound fields - acoustic glossary A "diffuse field" occurs sound energy is moving all directions. When the diffuse field builds up it tends to mask the direct sound so there is no clarity or articulation. The distance from the sound source at which the SPL of the diffuse field equals the direct sound is called the critical distance.

Dispersion: Speakers do not have a uniform dispersion patter. The ability of a single cone driver to control dispersion is determined primarily by the size of the driver in relation to the size of the wavelength it is trying to reproduce. Low frequencies will be omnidirectional because the wavelength is massively larger than the driver. As the frequency increases the driver will begin to exert pattern control and a beam of sound will start to form in front of the driver. This beam becomes tighter as the frequency increases.

Because of the dispersion characteristics, if you place your speaker flat on the floor the only direct sound you will hear is the omni-directional lows, and the also the low mids that have a very wide dispersion pattern. All of the mids and highs will shoot by below ear level unless you stand a significant distance in front of your speaker so your ears fall within the cone shaped dispersion pattern for higher frequencies. The only mids and and highs you will hear are those that have bounced off reflective surfaces before making their way to your ears.

Speaker Setup: I generally run a small rig and set it up to function as my personal monitor. I usually perform with a full PA, which carries my sound to the audience and other musicians. My goal is to be able to hear as clearly as possible from my amp, so I can run it at the lowest possible level. To do this, my cab is elevated to approximately waist level and tilted back to aim at my ears. This ensures I hear the full bandwidth the cab is capable of producing, and also ensures the shortest possible path for the direct sound. The idea is to increase the ratio between direct sound and indirect sound.

Another benefit of elevating the cab, IMHO, is something called boundary effect. When the speaker is within 1/4 wavelength of a nearby boundary, it causes phase cancellation at the frequency of the wavelength. In other words you get a little dip at a frequency that is determined by the distance between the cab and the floor. Here is an article that covers the principle, and I will attach a document with a frequency to wavelength table. The "Wavelength to Trap" columns in the documents lists 1/4 wavelength measurements.

Different people have different ideas of what bass should sound like. Some only want to hear the rumbly lows. My approach will not work well for those people because they do not really want to hear the mids and extended highs. However, if you want more clarity and articulation, I suggest you explore the ideas I have presented.

If you want full lows, clarity, and extended highs. Try a vertical array. The top cab must be either tall enough to disperse the full bandwidth directly to your ears, or you can tilt the top cab back a bit to aim the sound where it needs to go. This may mean you amp cannot go on top of your cab(s).

My last touring rig used rack gear in a 16-space rolling rack. I placed an Eden D210XLT on top of the rack vertically; with an extra DI wedged under the front edge of the speaker, so it tilted back to aim at my head. .

 

[TomB]

I’ve had your problem in the past. Things that helped:

Make sure your speakers have a tweeter or some high-freq device. I don’t like tweeters full on, so it helps to have a variable volume control on it.

As mentioned, an HPF can help - Mesa puts them on several if not all of the Subway heads. You can also try them out in pedal form for less $$’s to see if you like the effect.

I’ve moved to AudioKinesis cabs which are extremely well-balanced across the bass’ frequency range. Some of them use a paper mid vs a tweeter or horn. All of them give great balance all the way down to your lowest note. Their are other cabs that seek similar goals - it’s not all about driver size, as you’ve noted.

It’s ok to retain lows and low-mids, but don’t over-boost them. Adding high-mids carefully aids articulation, especially live.

On some stages, elevating the cab helps remove boom - not a cure-all though, IME.

You might even find string change experiments useful, if you haven’t already.

As KBD notes, everything matters. I found that amp mattered the least, and I had the same problem with multiple heads.

The other steps listed above have solved it for me. ...took years tho .

 

[Omega Monkey]

If you detail your bass (including set up and settings), strings, am (including settings), cab, and the room or rooms where you're experiencing this we can better help you.

Personally, I've never had an issues notes not being different from each other. Which means either you're just not listening closely or something is very wrong with your overall setup.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I hate to be THAT guy but sometimes the search for 'THAT" sound takes a lifetime. Listen to the folks here and I sure they'll steer you in the right direction. Good luck and stay healthy.

 

[Joedog]

I've struggled w/this in the past, especially as I like a "beefy" tone. W/my gear what works is turning the amp's bass control to "just enough" and then setting the (parametric) mids to very low, and the mids gain knob up. Nice clean, punchy lows, w/no mud, even with the treble backed off.

 

[SLO Surfer]

I recently posted a question about how to eliminate excessive harmonics when playing at 5th and 7th fret positions. Got some good suggestions which I will work on.

The next problem I’d like some help with is that of getting nice fat lows with good definition — i.e. “tight” low end response. It seems like when I play down the neck — toward the nut — the notes turn to mud making it impossible for my ear to hear whole and half steps. In other words, every note sounds the same, or at the very least they sound like the intonation is way off. Yes, I check intonation with a Peterson tuner! I have tried rolling off the bass EQ settings, increasing the trebles while using the J pups and rolling off the P pups. As a result I end up with a tone that is, for my taste, too trebly. I want defined, tight low end punch as well as clean high end pop. I can get the high end definition, but the low end is mud and ill-defined note-wise.

I have tried playing with all the EQ frequencies on the amp as well as with the EQ’s on the bass. Just can’t get what my ear is craving. I’m wondering if an amp like the the Mesa Boogie WD-800 Subway + cab would do the trick since that amp is SO adjustable. I just don’t want to lay out the big bucks only to have the same problem rear its ugly head. I have a MarkBass 121P, the latest Fender Rumble 500 (2X10), and at one point I also ran the MarkBass thru a 410 extension cab. I also had an original SWR Super Red Head. I have just not been able to dial in “that sound.” Any help would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. I guess I should have added that I want to be able to play nice walking bass lines with great pitch definition as well as classic rock and funk slap and pop.

How does your playing sound with the amp off? Do you get the note definition you want in the low register?

My first thought when reading your post is that this is a technique problem.

 

[red_rhino]

Try adding a good compressor to your signal chain. This can help a lot, particularly on a 5-string (I don't think you mentioned what kind of bass you're using.) The trick is learning how to use it right. A compressor can be a difficult effect to master. It takes time to understand what all the parameters are doing and how they interact, and you'll spend as much time (initially) finding out what you don't like as what you do. And there are a zillion offerings to choose from. (If only someone would start a huge compressor mega-thread so we could figure it all out. )

 

[Sid Fang]

This being TB, more/better gear will generally be called out as the solution, but I would not underestimate the role of technique. Picking/plucking just a few centimeters closer (or further away from) the bridge can make a big difference in which partials dominate in the attack.

 

[BassiklyAC]

I recently posted a question about how to eliminate excessive harmonics when playing at 5th and 7th fret positions. Got some good suggestions which I will work on.

The next problem I’d like some help with is that of getting nice fat lows with good definition — i.e. “tight” low end response. It seems like when I play down the neck — toward the nut — the notes turn to mud making it impossible for my ear to hear whole and half steps. In other words, every note sounds the same, or at the very least they sound like the intonation is way off. Yes, I check intonation with a Peterson tuner! I have tried rolling off the bass EQ settings, increasing the trebles while using the J pups and rolling off the P pups. As a result I end up with a tone that is, for my taste, too trebly. I want defined, tight low end punch as well as clean high end pop. I can get the high end definition, but the low end is mud and ill-defined note-wise.

I have tried playing with all the EQ frequencies on the amp as well as with the EQ’s on the bass. Just can’t get what my ear is craving. I’m wondering if an amp like the the Mesa Boogie WD-800 Subway + cab would do the trick since that amp is SO adjustable. I just don’t want to lay out the big bucks only to have the same problem rear its ugly head. I have a MarkBass 121P, the latest Fender Rumble 500 (2X10), and at one point I also ran the MarkBass thru a 410 extension cab. I also had an original SWR Super Red Head. I have just not been able to dial in “that sound.” Any help would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. I guess I should have added that I want to be able to play nice walking bass lines with great pitch definition as well as classic rock and funk slap and pop.

Another area to look at is how you have your bass set up. Having your action too low can contribute to having less clarity in your sound. Conversely, having super high action makes it difficult to press the string down far enough to allow the note to sing clearly.

First, check the curvature of the neck and see if a truss rod adjustment give the notes in the lower position some more clarity. Usually an ever so slight back bow (if I have my terminology correct) will get you there; that is, a little bit of distance between the strings and the fingerboard. (Essentially you want to loosen the tension on the neck).

Second, after you find the sweet spot with the neck, check how your bridge is set up and see if maybe you need a little more clearance on the E and A strings. As these lower strings need more room to vibrate, raising the saddle on those two strings allows them to speak more freely.

These are all done with baby steps - just a little at a time - but once dialed in, you’ll be swingin’.

 

[JMarkD]

Note definition and timbre are largely a matter of technique. Every one will give great advice for amp settings that will give you THEIR tone. Find your own tone. It's currently in your head, now move it into your fingers. Most amps sound pretty much the same in the end and you can work much magic by learning the subtle technical skills you have at the end of your wrists. Sorry, I know this doesn't help but after forty plus years of gigging, it's all I got.

 

[Wasnex]

Most amps sound pretty much the same in the end and you can work much magic by learning the subtle technical skills you have at the end of your wrists. Sorry, I know this doesn't help but after forty plus years of gigging, it's all I got.

In my experience, the choice of speakers tends to make the biggest difference. Some speakers are extremely voiced and some are fairly flat and transparent.

I would say bass and setup is #2. Pickup position and type of pickup is significant, and the choice between round wound strings and flats makes a huge difference.

Also the control settings on the amp and bass are significant. Some amps are strongly voiced, but most are not in my experience. The center frequencies and bandwidth of the bass's and amp's tone controls strongly influences the resultant sound.

I agree that technique definitely makes a difference. Early in my career I played with anchored thumb and fairly straight plucking fingers. My sound was really smooth, but it was unfocused and lacked punch in the low end.

Eventually I transitioned to floating thumb and arched plucking fingers. I found that arching the fingers gives a punchier and more articulate sound, and also offers a wider variation in tone, because you can change the angle in which you pluck the strings.

 

[jallenbass]

Try adding a good compressor to your signal chain. This can help a lot, particularly on a 5-string (I don't think you mentioned what kind of bass you're using.) The trick is learning how to use it right. A compressor can be a difficult effect to master. It takes time to understand what all the parameters are doing and how they interact, and you'll spend as much time (initially) finding out what you don't like as what you do. And there are a zillion offerings to choose from. (If only someone would start a huge compressor mega-thread so we could figure it all out. )

After watching one particular YouTube video demonstrating how a compressor applied lightly can articulate all of the notes on a bass equally I went and bought a TC Electronic Spectracomp, downloaded the default TonePrint and turned the knob all the way to the left (least amount of compression). Not only are my low notes clear my higher G string notes are fatter. Just to be clear this is not a cover-up of technical issues. I have a very consistent right-hand technique.

 

[chadds]

Plus your technique will necessarily change when you move about the bass’s fretbd.
The strings are shorter, the radius of the fretbd, everything changes. Your angle of pluck and the firmness or lightness will change to make notes speak.
What you will get is that adapting is making music.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I recently posted a question about how to eliminate excessive harmonics when playing at 5th and 7th fret positions. Got some good suggestions which I will work on.

The next problem I’d like some help with is that of getting nice fat lows with good definition — i.e. “tight” low end response. It seems like when I play down the neck — toward the nut — the notes turn to mud making it impossible for my ear to hear whole and half steps. In other words, every note sounds the same, or at the very least they sound like the intonation is way off. Yes, I check intonation with a Peterson tuner! I have tried rolling off the bass EQ settings, increasing the trebles while using the J pups and rolling off the P pups. As a result I end up with a tone that is, for my taste, too trebly. I want defined, tight low end punch as well as clean high end pop. I can get the high end definition, but the low end is mud and ill-defined note-wise.

I have tried playing with all the EQ frequencies on the amp as well as with the EQ’s on the bass. Just can’t get what my ear is craving. I’m wondering if an amp like the the Mesa Boogie WD-800 Subway + cab would do the trick since that amp is SO adjustable. I just don’t want to lay out the big bucks only to have the same problem rear its ugly head. I have a MarkBass 121P, the latest Fender Rumble 500 (2X10), and at one point I also ran the MarkBass thru a 410 extension cab. I also had an original SWR Super Red Head. I have just not been able to dial in “that sound.” Any help would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. I guess I should have added that I want to be able to play nice walking bass lines with great pitch definition as well as classic rock and funk slap and pop.

You know, a whole lot of that low note clarity comes from the cabinet. It's a lot easier to make an amp that will clearly produce those signals than it is to make a cab that will replicate them. I've used Eden amps since ~2008 and even my Eden Nemesis RS400 (was Eden's mid-price line) gives really clear lows. I ran that through an acoustic B410+a GK115bpx. That GK is a muddy, boomy cab and I had to drop the bass EQ down to about 10:30 to clear it up. In 2010 I got an Eden WT500/800 directly from the Eden founder hisownself. It has two power channels, so I just put one cab in each one and then used the "Balance" knob to adjust the mix of sound I got out of them. This sounded better yet because I didn't have to cut the bass EQ, which the acoustic B410 sorely needed to sound good by itself. That worked pretty nice until 2015.

In 2015 I finally bought a DNS-410 by DNA. David Nordschow founded Eden in 1976. He sold it to USM in 2008 and in 2009 he left Eden entirely. In 2010 he brought the first new products out from his new company DNA (David Nordschow Amplification). First time I plugged my WT500/800 into my DNS-410 I was amazed at the clarity of the cab and the fact that it had a very tight and full bottom end. It is also crazy loud. It will handle 1400-watts both mechanically and thermally, and I feed it with my Eden amp bridged at 800-watts. I can't even turn the master of my amp up past 9:30 indoors without shoving people out the door. I can run it up to 10 o'clock at outdoor festivals, but if I push it to 10:30 I get told to turn down.

I had to take my WT500/800 into the tech once and used my RS400 in the meantime. That RS400 putts out 400-watts a 4 ohms, but only 275-watts at 8 ohms. I did turn it up a full hour notch more than my other amp, but even with just that small amount of power it was plenty loud and still had that very tight and full bottom end - my RS400 never sounded so good!

The note definition on these cabs (I also have a DNS-210 now) is amazing as is their articulation. I could take those same amps and apply them to a lot cabs and I won't (don't) get anywhere near the clarity and articulation I get with my DNS cabs. They actually make you clean up your techniques because you will hear every mistake you play through them very clearly.

Street price on those though is ~$1,049, so they're not cheap. The next closest cab I've hear for articulation and clarity are the Eden XST cabs. Those are actually more expensive than the DNA cabs now that Marshall's cabinet shop makes the cabs. They also have that tight and low bottom end. Eden's XLT cabs have a mid-hump that gives them great definition and warmth, but the bottom end in those isn't as tight and doesn't go as low as their XST cabs. If you are buying new, get the DNA. If you're buying used and can find it, also by a DNA Cab. If you can't find one, you can often find Eden's XST cabs for around $500 to $600 used and those are still excellent cabs that will give you the clarity you're looking for.

By the way, I'm playing a passive Jazz with all controls (V,V,T) turned all the way. The amp is set flat except for a little low-mid boost at ~250Hz (gets close to that Eden XLT sound). Enhance knob is off, and auto-compressor is bypassed.

 

[bass-icly me]

I gotta agree with bass set up.

I found neck adjustment as well as bridge adjustment gets rid of the problems you describe. Having the action too low creates these problems. The strings need room to vibrate yet be easy for your fingers to press down.

Re- intonate once the strings are set.

Good luck!