Double Bass Giant Heavy Great Sounding DB amp?

[peterpalmieri]

Not really giant but....I've been following the string of recent posts on, PJB flight case, the new EA micro 300, LMII, Focus. Wizzy cabs etc.

Have many of you given a listen to the bigger more traditional lead sled amps like the Glockenglank Heart Rock? I wonder if based on weight alone many of you are not auditioning some really awesome sounding DB heads.

Many of you are already carrying around a 30lb cabinet that is very boxy, a 3 space 40lb padded rack is not very hard to carry around but sounds great. Not saying it is the way to go for a trio or other small acoustic type venue but in many of the situations discussed I think it is a great option. When compared to some of the newer ultra lights I feel there is absolutely no comparison in sound and to me sound is the end game small and light is great but not when it sacrifices sound.

All that being said I do need a small trio type amp, coda, flightcase etc....and will continue to follow all the new threads.

But don't discount the lead sleds in search of your ultimate sound............How about the Berg IP not getting much love on the DB side either....

For us guys that play an instrument the size of many european compact cars and at the cost of some European sports cars I wonder why we are so concerned me included

Pete

Edit: I in know way am trying to sell the idea of the Glockenklang on the rest of you but wonder if an amp like that or others DB750, Pre/Power seperates etc. have been well reviewed by some of the hard core DB gear heads.....

 

[Ric Vice]

Peter,
Ken Jung also has a Glockenklang and he loves it. So, to each there own. I love the Walter Woods Ultra and MI-400-8 that's my cup of tea.
I've had a Woods since 1979 and the two special things they have going for them (besides great tone and small size) are reliablilty and longevity. That's a feature we don't often talk about, but my original MI-100-8 is still being used regularly, and is now twenty seven years "young". After the faulty power supply was replaced, the only thing that's been repaired on that amplifer is the power cord.

Ric

 

[macmrkt]

I believe the Berg IP112 got top honors at a Bowlus GTG with DB. I really like the iAMP800 with DB when more volume is needed.

 

[tombowlus]

Peter,
Ken Jung also has a Glockenklang and he loves it.

Not any more, he sold to me. Though I must say, so far, I am digging my Heart-Core a good bit more. I would suspect the Heart-Core would be even better on upright (but keep in mind this is a discontinued model).

FWIW, the best 'big rig' I have heard for upright is the 3-way, bi-amped Bergantino IP153 (with or without the extension 1x15).

Tom.

 

[fradubio]

Howdy,
I've had fun with non-traditional lead sleds, Mesa 400 and 400+. Overkill for smaller quieter stuff, but great fun w/ rock and roll.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Interesting I've never heard a 15 I liked with the DB and I love 15s for BG

FWIW, the best 'big rig' I have heard for upright is the 3-way, bi-amped Bergantino IP153 (with or without the extension 1x15).

Tom.

 

[Deleted member 5551]

Until i moved to Chicago for school, i played a heavy rack setup. Carvin DCM2000 [40 pounds on it's own], SansAmp RPM, SansAmp RBI, and a few others in limited stints all housed in a Gator 6 space roller rack. It weighed about as much as my SWR WM12. Heavy, powerful, and gobs of tone. It was by no means boutique-but it worked and sounded great in every room we played.

If i could carry all of that stuff to a gig-that'd be great, but that was overkill for the football [Indiana Class AAAA] stadiums we played in marching band, let alone for The Green Mill.

 

[tombowlus]

Interesting I've never heard a 15 I liked with the DB and I love 15s for BG

The IP153 is a very different beast from your run of the mill 15" equipped bass enclosure. I'd say it's more akin to hearing an upright (or electric) through a really good full-range PA system.

Tom.

 

[jobo4]

My Eden Metro 210XLT combo is a great sounding amp. Lots of tone shaping options, two channels and LOUD. At 88 pounds a dolly is a nice investment. When I'm on a doubling gig, I can load in in two trips.

As I recently said in another post, "since I'm already playing an instrument the size of Pluto, I might as well carry an amp with the density of a quasar.

 

[KJung]

I promise I'll get back over to the EB side where I belong, but I seem to be familiar with all the stuff talked about over here.

Ric... yeah, I still love that big Glock, but it was just too much of a horse to haul around for me. More importantly though, the Markbass SD800 kind of eliminated my need for a lead sled.

In the past (the VERY recent past), I used a small amp (Walter Woods, Thunderfunk, whatever) for the vast majority of my gigs, and had one lead sled type head or another around for the rare gig where I needed huge punch and presence (e.g., playing pop music outside with no PA support, or playing on a huge stage with massive front of house support, but no personal monitor mix, etc.).

However, the newest generation of the high power switching amps (the stuff used in the IP's, and IMO the SD800) is just stunning... massive volume and low end ooomph, versus IMO the AI and Walter heads... plenty loud, but just missing that 'gut crunch' down low.

So, my need for a lead sled seems to have been solved by a 7.5 pound two rack space head

My feeling about why the IP's are not widely used by DBers has to do with two things... weight... the larger ones are quite heavy, and more importantly, the huge, wide, open tone of these things... massive low end and, at least with the IP310 and 212, a very sizzly and crisp upper mid and treble response... again, not what I would consider optimal for DB.

Anyway... things are really getting A LOT better with these very lighweight amps IMO.

Edit: Tom's comment about the IP153 makes sense... that seems like a differently voiced beast, and would probably just KILL with acoustic instruments. I believe Tom has posted that the low end is actually tighter than the huge sounding 310 and 212, and obviously, the upper mids and treble will be softer, smoother and more 'organic' with the three way design and different, less aggressive sounding tweeter. Cool!

 

[peterpalmieri]

The input impedance on the LMII seems to be pretty low for a piezo pick up and carrying around an additional preamp kind of defeats the purpose. The Thunderfunk just didn't do it for me on the DB side either. I do think switching amps like the UL502 really sound great unfortunately again it doesn't do it for me with the DB although I do love the EB tone.

I am tending to find some of these small light weights mentioned above seem to be better voiced for EB then DB. I have heard good things about the IP112 for DB but haven't had the chance to test it out myself.

DB sounds seem to be more different then EB dependng on the bass, pickup, amp, cabinet combo and I find it harder to find consistency like we do on the EB side.

 

[KJung]

The input impedance on the LMII seems to be pretty low for a piezo pick up and carrying around an additional preamp kind of defeats the purpose. The Thunderfunk just didn't do it for me on the DB side either. I do think switching amps like the UL502 really sound great unfortunately again it doesn't do it for me with the DB although I do love the EB tone.

I am tending to find some of these small light weights mentioned above seem to be better voiced for EB then DB. I have heard good things about the IP112 for DB but haven't had the chance to test it out myself.

DB sounds seem to be more different then EB dependng on the bass, pickup, amp, cabinet combo and I find it harder to find consistency like we do on the EB side.

Small point, but I think the epi502 is class D, but with a conventional (or toriodal.. not sure) power supply, similar to the iAmp500 and 800 (toriodal there).

 

[peterpalmieri]

You are right the Epi is a class D my mistake.

In regards to the IAMP, I owned an IAMP 350 and it tended to be a little noisy, that really put me off from getting an 800. Now with this noise issue on the new micro I am very leary of them. Although some of the cabinets are just great......

 

[KJung]

You are right the Epi is a class D my mistake.

In regards to the IAMP, I owned an IAMP 350 and it tended to be a little noisy, that really put me off from getting an 800. Now with this noise issue on the new micro I am very leary of them. Although some of the cabinets are just great......

I actually found my old iAmp350 to be significantly quieter than my later 800, and especially the very hissy 500, so that's probably a smart choice on your part if signal to noise is a concern. I think the iAmp noise varies by unit (which is even more troubling), with some being reasonably quiet, and others being quite noisy.

 

[Ric Vice]

The input impedance on the LMII seems to be pretty low for a piezo pick up and carrying around an additional preamp kind of defeats the purpose. The Thunderfunk just didn't do it for me on the DB side either. I do think switching amps like the UL502 really sound great unfortunately again it doesn't do it for me with the DB although I do love the EB tone.

Peter,
That was one of my concerns when the Little Mark II arrived on the scene. Macmarkt has been using them for a while so mabey he can chime in tell us what he uses, or dosen't use. The specs would indicate that you would need a buffer pre amp. But Ken Jung loves this amp and it's very reasonably priced.

I am tending to find some of these small light weights mentioned above seem to be better voiced for EB then DB. I have heard good things about the IP112 for DB but haven't had the chance to test it out myself.

I can't speak for all the amps you mentioned but a Walter Woods is definitely voiced for DB and works well with EB. It just dosen't have the kick that you need for slapping.

DB sounds seem to be more different then EB dependng on the bass, pickup, amp, cabinet combo and I find it harder to find consistency like we do on the EB side.

This is very true and if you double it's difficult to find a small lightweight that will fill the bill for both DE and EB. Unfortunately, it's not a one size fits all situation.

Ric

 

[peterpalmieri]

This is very true and if you double it's difficult to find a small lightweight that will fill the bill for both DE and EB. Unfortunately, it's not a one size fits all situation. Ric

Totally agree! To that point small/ light weight or not it is a difficult task.

I still haven't heard as much about "non superlightweights" that function really well, although the IP153 would not seem like a likely suspect, Tom brings up an interesting positive observation.

 

[macmrkt]

The Markbass LMII is WONDERFUL on DB's with more recent piezo's - like the Full Circle - plugged right in with no extra box. It was mentioned elsewhere and it's true - today's piezo's seem to be more flexible in terms of what input impedence you can run.

I agree with everything Peter said - the Epifani 502 sounded very poor with my Full Circle, the LMII sounds great. Both are rated at 500K at the input. So, once again, you have to listen and not go on specs alone.

Your comment about DB v. BG when picking an amp is also right on. I like a lot more amps playing BG!

Finally, a truly super rig for doubling is the EA Wizzy MLine (thanks BriBass) and the iAMP800. Its very uncolored for DB, and has lots of kick for BG. I ran this rig on a blues gig last night without PA support. One guitarist ran a Fender '59 Bassman reissue (4x10 and 60 watts tube). AND the harmonica player also had the same amp! So I was running against 2 very loud players and a drummer. The Wizzy M/iAMP800 with a natural 5 string F Bass didn't even break a sweat and delivered fabulous tone all night. I know people get good results with the AI heads and I'd say the LMII would also be interesting to try if you didn't want the iAMPs with the Wizzy M.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I promise I'll get back over to the EB side where I belong, but I seem to be familiar with all the stuff talked about over here.

Ric... yeah, I still love that big Glock, but it was just too much of a horse to haul around for me. More importantly though, the Markbass SD800 kind of eliminated my need for a lead sled.

In the past (the VERY recent past), I used a small amp (Walter Woods, Thunderfunk, whatever) for the vast majority of my gigs, and had one lead sled type head or another around for the rare gig where I needed huge punch and presence (e.g., playing pop music outside with no PA support, or playing on a huge stage with massive front of house support, but no personal monitor mix, etc.).

However, the newest generation of the high power switching amps (the stuff used in the IP's, and IMO the SD800) is just stunning... massive volume and low end ooomph, versus IMO the AI and Walter heads... plenty loud, but just missing that 'gut crunch' down low.

So, my need for a lead sled seems to have been solved by a 7.5 pound two rack space head

My feeling about why the IP's are not widely used by DBers has to do with two things... weight... the larger ones are quite heavy, and more importantly, the huge, wide, open tone of these things... massive low end and, at least with the IP310 and 212, a very sizzly and crisp upper mid and treble response... again, not what I would consider optimal for DB.

Anyway... things are really getting A LOT better with these very lighweight amps IMO.

Edit: Tom's comment about the IP153 makes sense... that seems like a differently voiced beast, and would probably just KILL with acoustic instruments. I believe Tom has posted that the low end is actually tighter than the huge sounding 310 and 212, and obviously, the upper mids and treble will be softer, smoother and more 'organic' with the three way design and different, less aggressive sounding tweeter. Cool!

Having read your comments and Tom's, and considering the digital wizardry used in the IP units, I can't help but wonder how challenging it would be for Mr. Bergantino to add a switch that would enable the user to select electric or upright optimization.

 

[KJung]

Having read your comments and Tom's, and considering the digital wizardry used in the IP units, I can't help but wonder how challenging it would be for Mr. Bergantino to add a switch that would enable the user to select electric or upright optimization.

That's what gets a little funky with these things. The DSP is supposed to 'flatten' them out (i.e., 'fix' the inherent dips and scoops in the basic response of the cab), and also apply compression along with a deep low end cutoff (I think at 40hz for the big ones) to result in very loud volume given the box size.

Once you get into different tone setting, then you are really talking about traditional EQ, which really suggests a combo amp... nice speaker voiced appropriately for DB, a nice bass head with enough tone control to match your instrument to the system and resolve (at least to a point), differences in room acoustics.

Of course, you can put a pre in front of the IP, and that's really the logic of the design. However, as we all know, mixing and matching a cab or power amp from one company with a pre from another is an art in and of itself, with impedance matching, gain matching, etc., etc.

So, you really need to think of these things as more of a 'front of house' type PA system that happens to be sitting behind you on stage. They still have a VERY distinct Bergantino tone ('flat' does not mean 'no character of sound of their own), but they are loud monsters and very nice if you like the Bergantino HT type tone.

IMO.

Edit: I have not heard the new IP153, and also have limited time with the other units... they are quite amazing and are a unique design in the bass amplification world at this point.

 

[ElMon]

I might add that, with my Eminence EUB through my Markbass SD800 and either 112 or 410 Epifani cab, I have all the volume and tone that I would ever need, whether its a low-volume combo gig or a loud fusion gig. I leave the eq flat and turn the VLE knob up to about 12 O'clock and I'm done.