Double Bass Giant Steps (the album): Bad drumming?

[Ed Fuqua]

I'm more with CF on this one. I can appreciate what he did, just can't listen to it too much. This kinda makes living and playing in NYC (Land of Coltrane Clones) a bit grating at times. I'd kill to hear a tenor player going for Getz, Zoot, Prez, etc.

They're around, not in the same numbers that's for sure. But just because there's a million dripped ink sketches of DON QUIXOTE in cheap hotels around the world doesn't diminish Picasso.

Doug White, Jimmy Halperin, Dave Franck, Bob Kindred, Chris Garone; they're around. It's just not the current "flavor", especially with younger players. Have you played with Loren Stillman? I haven't heard him, just heard good things about his playing.

 

[anonymous0726]

Naw, played a lot with Kindred this summer. I really love his playing.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

A lot of the time Trane in that Giant Steps period strikes me as something in motion, a man on a quest, a traveller -- like he's looking for something. Climbing the mountain on his hands and knees, struggling heroically kinda thing. So there are two things to grok: the trip and the destination. I'm more a destination guy, but who was doing exploratory travelling like Trane in the 60's? At that time he was the freaking Captain Cook of jazz, the Magellan of Music.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Naw, played a lot with Kindred this summer. I really love his playing.

I hear a lot of Sonny in there, but I've only heard him a couple of times.

 

[Chrix]

Jimmy Cobb was only on "Naima" - which is a very slow and beautiful ballad, which is played very tastefully by the whole ensemble!!


The rest of the tracks on the originally-released album had Art Taylor on drums.

Oops. Sorry. I should have known better.

 

[Alexi David]

They're around, not in the same numbers that's for sure. But just because there's a million dripped ink sketches of DON QUIXOTE in cheap hotels around the world doesn't diminish Picasso.

Doug White, Jimmy Halperin, Dave Franck, Bob Kindred, Chris Garone; they're around. It's just not the current "flavor", especially with younger players. Have you played with Loren Stillman? I haven't heard him, just heard good things about his playing.

At the New School, anytime I'm near the practice rooms I ALWAYS hear a FEW Tenor players shedding Giant Steps or just Trane Transcriptions....What about Paul Gonsalves? Gregory Herbert?

I think A.T. played fine. Hell, Im always seeking out drummers at the school that WILL play simply, and in the groove, rather than all of that Tony Williams **** everyone wants to do all the time. ah, Subtlety........

 

[Pcocobass]

I think Jimmy Cobb played fine. Hell, Im always seeking out drummers at the school that WILL play simply, and in the groove, rather than all of that Tony Williams **** everyone wants to do all the time. ah, Subtlety........

Amen to that!

 

[Aaron Saunders]

+1 on the subtlety thing. I can't remember who it was -- probably Ray, and definitely either him or Ed -- said something to the effect that Tony's drumming, while amazing in and of itself, ruined an entire generation of drummers.

On the subject of tenor players...*shrug* Everyone could use a little more Sonny and Getz.

 

[Alexi David]

+1 on the subtlety thing. I can't remember who it was -- probably Ray, and definitely either him or Ed -- said something to the effect that Tony's drumming, while amazing in and of itself, ruined an entire generation of drummers.

On the subject of tenor players...*shrug* Everyone could use a little more Sonny and Getz.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I love Elvin and Tony, and I love playing on top of that kind of propulsion. Unfortunately, I see that most young drummers don't get a good basic thing going (read: steady tempo, hard swing, etc) - and they plunge right into polyrhythms, crossrhythms, etc. Rarely does it work. I instantly become Leroy Vinnegar (so to speak) just to hold it all together.....

Then there's the times when I've played on top of Joe Chambers (at school, no, I don't gig with him!). He doesn't waste one note, and NEVER overplays. Must be the old-school training.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

OK - some interesting discussion - but does anybody really think that the drumming on Giant Steps is "bad" or "all hi-hat"... as the original poster maintained?

I'm with Pete when he said :

"IMO, all the tracks on Giant Steps swing HARD. I think the rhythm section is driving the whole album."

I really like the bass and drums throughout - piano not so much OK - but I don't hear anything wrong with the drumming...

 

[Alexi David]

OK - some interesting discussion - but does anybody really think that the drumming on Giant Steps is "bad" or all hi-hat...?

Not I.

 

[Howard K]

Then there's the times when I've played on top of Joe Chambers (at school, no, I don't gig with him!). He doesn't waste one note, and NEVER overplays. Must be the old-school training.

My tutor at college is predominantly a drummer, in his words, "if you dont like playing time, dont be a drummer!". A fair point

 

[Pcocobass]

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I love Elvin and Tony, and I love playing on top of that kind of propulsion. Unfortunately, I see that most young drummers don't get a good basic thing going (read: steady tempo, hard swing, etc) - and they plunge right into polyrhythms, crossrhythms, etc. Rarely does it work. I instantly become Leroy Vinnegar (so to speak) just to hold it all together.....

Then there's the times when I've played on top of Joe Chambers (at school, no, I don't gig with him!). He doesn't waste one note, and NEVER overplays. Must be the old-school training.

Every great drummer I've heard (like every great bass player) has one thing in common: They can swing their a** off. I don't care how much polyrhythmic crap you can do - if it don't swing, no one will hire you. To me, if you play like Tain or Philly Joe, that's cool - AS LONG AS your ride beat is swinging. Unfortunately, a lot of guys my age that I know just don't get it. Bassists and drummers alike. The best compliment you can get isn't "nice solo," but "Man that FELT good!"

My opinion...

 

[Don Higdon]

Naw, played a lot with Kindred this summer. I really love his playing.

I did a concert with Bob 2 years ago, had a ball. Tim Horner and Tomoko Ohno.
You can tell I'm not playing much bass anymore - Saturday night and I'm posting.
Trane lost me not long after Giant Steps. Favorite Things heard today sounds like a travesty to me. Richard Rogers hated it.
It became a huge issue of political correctness to espouse Trane.
To Ray's list I'd add Lucky Thompson; for a harder edge, Booker Ervin and Harold Land

 

[anonymous0726]

Richard Rogers hated it.
It became a huge issue of political correctness to espouse Trane.

Which is why I generally don't say much about my opinion on this. I do get dirty looks, though, when people call from the JC hymnal and I don't know the tunes.

To Ray's list I'd add Lucky Thompson; for a harder edge, Booker Ervin and Harold Land

I'm with you there!

 

[Jeremy Allen]

Richard Rogers hated it.

I should hope so. If jazz musicians had to restrict their versions of songs to renditions approved of by the Broadway composers who wrote them, Michael Feinstein would be out of work.

BTW: "Syeeda's Song Flute," right? Not "Syeeda's Flute Song." Once is happenstance, but twice makes me begin to question the cover of my CD re-issue (I've never seen the original vinyl release).

Don't dig Coltrane's playing on Giant Steps? OK, but maybe think of it as a snapshot: here's the culmination, captured in 1959, of one genius' wrestlings with playing inside over changes. He's got it down, examined the problem from every angle and attacked it until a solution is found. If you can actually HEAR the changes of Giant Steps (something a professional jazz musician would take for granted, but which might be beyond those in the earlier stages of involvement with the music), then you can listen to Trane's playing on this album as what it really is: the musical equivalent of a really gifted savant solving a Rubic's Cube in record time, or playing multiple games of blindfolded chess, and somehow doing it with the passion inherent in Coltrane's musical expression. The moment obviously didn't last for Trane; once he had climbed that mountain, he took a look around and then lit out for the next challenge, and within two years he was exploring completely different territory. His career was a work in progess, as should be that of all of us pursuing creative music.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Actually' I'm not sure anybody has said they didn't like Coltrane's playing on GS - the original post was complaining about the drumming!

 

[Jeremy Allen]

Actually, to be fair, it's Coltrane himself I find hard work. I find his tone very direct (in a screaming, stabbing kind of way) at the best of times, and I like it for that fact, but this album is still a bit too full on for me. I love some of the melodies and sounds, but..

I can't get past the biting tone and the intonation most of the time...

I'm more with CF on this one. I can appreciate what he did, just can't listen to it too much...

The thread is about Giant Steps; all of the above distinguished posters are bright guys, and I'm sure they're not simply hijacking the thread and talking about "Ascension"-era Coltrane when making these comments. You yourself, Bruce, said the album was "hard listening" at first, and I doubt that by that you were referring to the very standard and straight-ahead walking bass, drums, and piano comping. I don't think I was coming out of left-field with my post.

 

[Pcocobass]

I should hope so. If jazz musicians had to restrict their versions of songs to renditions approved of by the Broadway composers who wrote them, Michael Feinstein would be out of work.

BTW: "Syeeda's Song Flute," right? Not "Syeeda's Flute Song." Once is happenstance, but twice makes me begin to question the cover of my CD re-issue (I've never seen the original vinyl release).

Don't dig Coltrane's playing on Giant Steps? OK, but maybe think of it as a snapshot: here's the culmination, captured in 1959, of one genius' wrestlings with playing inside over changes. He's got it down, examined the problem from every angle and attacked it until a solution is found. If you can actually HEAR the changes of Giant Steps (something a professional jazz musician would take for granted, but which might be beyond those in the earlier stages of involvement with the music), then you can listen to Trane's playing on this album as what it really is: the musical equivalent of a really gifted savant solving a Rubic's Cube in record time, or playing multiple games of blindfolded chess, and somehow doing it with the passion inherent in Coltrane's musical expression. The moment obviously didn't last for Trane; once he had climbed that mountain, he took a look around and then lit out for the next challenge, and within two years he was exploring completely different territory. His career was a work in progess, as should be that of all of us pursuing creative music.

+1 Great post.

 

[dex68]

...And Art Taylor was a very fine drummer. I like Giant Steps. It's the record that woke me up to jazz. If Taylor sounds a bit stiff on the title track and Countdown, it may be because the music was so new to him he wasn't sure what to play, so he played safe - better than sounding bad for a working player. Listen to him on the many Red Garland records. He was very tasty.