Gig gone horribly wrong - last Friday night

[Toastfuzz]

SUESUESUESUESUESUESUESUE

C'mon people, have you ever tried to sue someone? Really? I don't think any lawyer would take this on, because the chances of winning a LAWSUIT are super slim in this scenario. The guitarist was already engaging in risky behavior, it would take alot to actually prove fault on the bouncer. Also no mention of whether or not this guy was drinking at the time (case immediately thrown out). Same with the venue owner, since he was perfectly safe on the stage, and took his life into his own hands monkeying around. The only material witnesses are him and his bandmates and maybe his friends, but good luck getting any bar patrons to jump on board. Not saying I agree with it, but be realistic and think what would actually happen.

I think the threat of a lawsuit would carry more weight, in the form of an official looking settlement request. Itemize the losses and threaten to go to court, but be open to negotiation as well, and he might actually get somewhere. Getting a lawyer and suing immediately would just prompt the bar owner to lawyer up, win his case, then counter-sue your friend for wasting his time or possibly defamation or making threats. It gets hazy when you involve a bunch of lawyers.

Also try putting yourself in their shoes... if I was the bar owner or the bouncer and got any legal notice from some random old musician who hurt himself on stage, I'd toss it right in the bin and go on like nothing happened. Alot of people have successfully defended themselves in court by simply ignoring all notifications and not showing up... claim ignorance on all counts and drag it out as long as possible and eventually it gets tossed. Also, not saying I agree with it, just saying be realistic.

My honest opinion of the whole thing is that your buddy's trying to invite everyone to the pity party with a VERY one-sided list of facts, but if you read between the lines, it sounds like this guitar player was acting recklessly, and very possibly could have instigated the assault in question. Sucks, but thats why you don't bring $1000+ custom shop instruments to bar gigs, and why you don't do a balancing act on a wall with said custom shop instrument when you're over 50 and can't afford to take a few bumps.

 

[The1bassist06]

That's what I like about you Mr. Eye. You are truly a rocker with the proper attitude, and that's no BS.

When I was young and dumb, broken foot or no, some SOB would have paid on the spot, and in blood, for my broken guitar and foot.

Now that I'm old and wiser, and broken to the point I can no longer do the crazy dance, I'd lick my wounds and plot revenge, but those plans would never include civil court for such a trivial matter.

Civil court is where you seek relief for serious wrongs not covered by the criminal code. Call me silly, but a broken foot and easily replaceable guitar are not what I'd call serious wrongs. A broken foot will heal, and a custom shop strat can be duplicated by the same custom shop that built the first one. It's a hassle, but it's by no means a serious life changing event. A serious wrong would be something which could not be made whole like being paralyzed by a broken back, or having your legs crushed to the point they are essentially pegs on which you balance ( carefully) because the alternative, at least according to the medical professionals, is to lop them off just above the knee.

In truth and seriousness, I'd take my 20 plus years of experience writing letters to various government contractors warning them of the dire consequences of failing to meet a contracted delivery date, failing to conform to drawing specifications, etc, and make it sound like the full weight of the legal system would be brought to bear on all parties responsible for injuring me and breaking my equipment. I would end said letter with a request for a one on one meeting with the club owner(s) to discuss options. I would then send that letter in hopes it would lead to a reasoned discussion on what to do about what happened. If they refused to respond or did so with an effoff attitude, I'd decide at that point what to do next, but IME, given a chance to be reasonable the vast majority of us will do exactly that.

Call me easy, but dumping the bouncer would be enough to satisfy me. Why punish the owner for the ignorance of someone else? I pay for good insurance to cover medical and I've broken more than one bass doing stupid things so why punish someone who is just trying to make a living?

Oh and BTW...try to keep in mind this was posted under bass humor and gig stories, so some replies attempting to make light of what happened should be expected.

You sir are the definition of a jackass

 

[Medford Bassman]

SUESUESUESUESUESUESUESUE

C'mon people, have you ever tried to sue someone? Really? I don't think any lawyer would take this on, because the chances of winning a LAWSUIT are super slim in this scenario. The guitarist was already engaging in risky behavior, it would take alot to actually prove fault on the bouncer. Also no mention of whether or not this guy was drinking at the time (case immediately thrown out). Same with the venue owner, since he was perfectly safe on the stage, and took his life into his own hands monkeying around. The only material witnesses are him and his bandmates and maybe his friends, but good luck getting any bar patrons to jump on board. Not saying I agree with it, but be realistic and think what would actually happen.

I think the threat of a lawsuit would carry more weight, in the form of an official looking settlement request. Itemize the losses and threaten to go to court, but be open to negotiation as well, and he might actually get somewhere. Getting a lawyer and suing immediately would just prompt the bar owner to lawyer up, win his case, then counter-sue your friend for wasting his time or possibly defamation or making threats. It gets hazy when you involve a bunch of lawyers.

Also try putting yourself in their shoes... if I was the bar owner or the bouncer and got any legal notice from some random old musician who hurt himself on stage, I'd toss it right in the bin and go on like nothing happened. Alot of people have successfully defended themselves in court by simply ignoring all notifications and not showing up... claim ignorance on all counts and drag it out as long as possible and eventually it gets tossed. Also, not saying I agree with it, just saying be realistic.

My honest opinion of the whole thing is that your buddy's trying to invite everyone to the pity party with a VERY one-sided list of facts, but if you read between the lines, it sounds like this guitar player was acting recklessly, and very possibly could have instigated the assault in question. Sucks, but thats why you don't bring $1000+ custom shop instruments to bar gigs, and why you don't do a balancing act on a wall with said custom shop instrument when you're over 50 and can't afford to take a few bumps.

You make a good point on the contributory negligence aspect on the part of the musician. However, if his set of facts are correct, that very well may only affect the damages portion of the case, not the negligence of the bouncer/owner for the assault. Hence a well worded letter from a lawsuit PRE-SUIT might resolve the entire matter.

 

[Jools4001]

Leaving aside the question of whether an "upscale restaurant/club" is an appropriate place to be running around jumping on tables, what surprises me is that so many people see fit to rush to judgement on the basis of such scant evidence.

To put things in perspective, whatever the true facts of this episode might be, we don't have them here.

What we have is an email, reportedly from one of the aggreived parties, who has a vested interest in taking the moral high ground and making the best legal case they possibly can in pursuit of damages. Said email has then been posted on this board (most probably verbatim, but how would we know?) by somebody who wasn't even there at the time.

Whatever else may be the truth of the matter we only have information from one side of the arguement that has been filtered....twice!

 

[Toastfuzz]

You make a good point on the contributory negligence aspect on the part of the musician. However, if his set of facts are correct, that very well may only affect the damages portion of the case, not the negligence of the bouncer/owner for the assault. Hence a well worded letter from a lawsuit PRE-SUIT might resolve the entire matter.

You've just out-lawyered me.

But thats what I'm sayin. Civil cases are he-said-she-said, so considering what "they" will say makes me think this case is open-shut lose. However, a pre-suit settlement would win more likely, especially if the bar owner's insurance ponies up the cash for a settlement.

Think of it this way, Talkbass: we've received an extremely biased representation of events from the victim's side, until you know the other side of the story, any advice is useless. But settlement letters are a nice legal threat and can't ever hurt, even if you're wrong

Edit: Jools beat me to it

 

[Medford Bassman]

Again, that's why it's wise to contact an attorney. Good to have an objective party gather more facts, investigate the claim for validity and if the evidence is sufficient, fire off the first letter to the bar owner.

If a letter comes from the person alone without the investigation and if the facts aren't exactly as stated here, not only does the musician look foolish, but their letter will sent to the circular filing cabinet in about 2 seconds.

 

[groooooove]

it sounds unrealistic that the bouncer just decided to push him down for a laugh. if he did and customers are the venue saw it, guitarist should have a shot..

 

[Buster Brown]

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't think you understand the owner's liability here for his employee. Whether the owner sanctioned the bouncer's actions or not, is simply not relevant as to whether the owner is liable. It may go to the amount of damages awarded but will not go to the owner's negligent actions. that's all I'm trying to say. Generally, employers are responsible for their employees actions while on the clock if there acting in their capacity as an employee. Truth be told hiring bouncers period is a legal tightrope all bar owners face. At least in my state, bouncers don't get a special dispensation when it comes to roughing someone up.

You, sir, are 100% correct. I have, over the course of many years, spoken with (literally) hundreds of bar owners, bouncers, wait staff and the like.

Every person who is being paid by the owner is responsible to the owner for their conduct while on duty, including the band. My take, without obviously knowing the WHOLE story, is that the band AND the bouncer may have been getting a little out of line. That, however, does not excuse the conduct of the bouncer.

A bouncer, regardless of the state, can only use that force that is required to escort someone off the premise. Period, end of story. Assualt with intent to commit bodily harm goes both ways in the case of a patron AND a bouncer.

Even if the guitarist had been warned repeatedly to stop the shenanigans and he refused, the power should have been pulled, the house lights up and the band told to leave immediately. What the boucer did could have potentially been a disaster. Fortunately, nothing more serious happened.

That said...I stick to my original point. The bouncer is a liability to the owner and should be terminated IMMEDIATELY. The owner should offer restitution for medical bills and to repair/replace the guitar.

 

[MOTORHEADBANGER]

I'd say anyone in this day and age who is not insured gets what they asked for if they wind up needing it and not having it. Same for trying to get by on the cheap. Why be penny wise and pound foolish?

Hmmm... let's see, maybe like a good sum of people in this country, some of us cannot afford "premium" insurance, or any insurance for that matter. Have you actually seen what most insurance costs are anymore, even with company provided insurance charges for remedial things are outrageous. I know many that have to pay $80-100 minimum for a doctor's visit, before medication costs. After reading several of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you sir are an arrogant jackass.

 

[bassbully]

You, sir, are 100% correct. I have, over the course of many years, spoken with (literally) hundreds of bar owners, bouncers, wait staff and the like.

Every person who is being paid by the owner is responsible to the owner for their conduct while on duty, including the band. My take, without obviously knowing the WHOLE story, is that the band AND the bouncer may have been getting a little out of line. That, however, does not excuse the conduct of the bouncer.

A bouncer, regardless of the state, can only use that force that is required to escort someone off the premise. Period, end of story. Assualt with intent to commit bodily harm goes both ways in the case of a patron AND a bouncer.

Even if the guitarist had been warned repeatedly to stop the shenanigans and he refused, the power should have been pulled, the house lights up and the band told to leave immediately. What the boucer did could have potentially been a disaster. Fortunately, nothing more serious happened.

That said...I stick to my original point. The bouncer is a liability to the owner and should be terminated IMMEDIATELY. The owner should offer restitution for medical bills and to repair/replace the guitar.

This is where I am at. The club is responsible if the facts are true to what we were givin and thats all we know.We can only read into this for what we know.
No bouncer has the right to put their hands on you unless they are protecting themselves, another, breaking up a conflict or other actions to restrain someone from injury to themselves or another. They can only use what force is needed to do this nothing more. I never swung on or struck a person with my fist or foot when working event security. I did restrain, carry, escort, people who needed to be delt with. We were told to always use only the force needed to deal with the subject and situation. Anything more could put the venue and us in the wrong. I told all my guys if you cant use your mouth, you can't use your fists. Talking worked 95% of the time and I'm sure if they would of talked to the guitar player he would of understood. If not the show would of ended right there.

We are only posting on a what the OP has told us and there is no reason to create another story or slant on it. Going on what we are told and know the club is responsible for the actions of the bouncer..period!

 

[Tmw2011]

Have you actually seen what most insurance costs are anymore, even with company provided insurance charges for remedial things are outrageous.

+1000

I've got 'ok' health insurance, far from premium. My personal insurance is provided by my employer but to cover the rest of my family (wife & 2 kids) I'm playing almost $1000 a month. And I still have a $5000 deductable across the family with $200 copays for Emergency Room visits and $100 for Urgent Care visits...

Even in a 2 income household (sometimes 3, because I occasionally teach college on the side) that's a freaking huge output of money. Combined with mortgage/utiliies, living in a neighborhood that isn't conducive to crime or death, I'm trying to figure out how the average person should be able to go out and maintain premium insurance at these costs, as our good troll so implies.

 

[selowitch]

Anybody have an insights into what that bouncer could have been thinking? I'm still agape.

 

[bassbully]

Anybody have an insights into what that bouncer could have been thinking? I'm still agape.

I think thats the issue ..He wasnt thinking. Even if he had warned the guitarist to not be on the wall,tables etc he had no right to do what he did to remove him and cause injury. I played in a country band a few years back and as cheesy as I thought it was the singer we supported used to do the table walk for the older woman He was told at one venue to stop or it was the end of the show by the manager. Our singer stopped right away with no issues. I'm sure this would of worked in this case too.

 

[bassmeknik]

I'm sorry what about the guy who can't afford insurance is that his fault in this economy?????

Anyone that doesn't have insurance deserves what he's got coming???????????

Take that silver spoon out of your mouth and say that :scowl:

 

[bassmeknik]

Hmmm... let's see, maybe like a good sum of people in this country, some of us cannot afford "premium" insurance, or any insurance for that matter. Have you actually seen what most insurance costs are anymore, even with company provided insurance charges for remedial things are outrageous. I know many that have to pay $80-100 minimum for a doctor's visit, before medication costs. After reading several of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you sir are an arrogant jackass.

100000000000000+ thank you for thinking what I'm thinking I DO love Talk Bass

 

[Marko 1]

Unless I missed something, everyone seems to be assuming it can be proven (even that it's a fact) that the bouncer pushed the mr rocker.

Unless there’s some seriously positive testimony from unbiased patrons (not the band members), a judge would have to consider how easily mr rocker doing acrobatics on a narrow fence rail could slip.

Doesn’t necessarily matter that the bouncer may have been standing there reminding mr rocker to stop jumping on the woodwork.

 

[fhm555]

Hmmm... let's see, maybe like a good sum of people in this country, some of us cannot afford "premium" insurance, or any insurance for that matter. Have you actually seen what most insurance costs are anymore, even with company provided insurance charges for remedial things are outrageous. I know many that have to pay $80-100 minimum for a doctor's visit, before medication costs. After reading several of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you sir are an arrogant jackass.

So the insurance situation in America is MY fault? I'm some kind of bad guy because WE have allowed the insurance industry to run amok?

All I did was point out the obvious, I had no more to do with why it is the obvious than you did.

As for me being an arrogant jackass...would that be because I learned to work the system to my advantage, of would it be because you didn't?

 

[ckitz]

So the insurance situation in America is MY fault? I'm some kind of bad guy because WE have allowed the insurance industry to run amok?

All I did was point out the obvious, I had no more to do with why it is the obvious than you did.

As for me being an arrogant jackass...would that be because I learned to work the system to my advantage, of would it be because you didn't?

Wow. Just....... wow. I don't even know what to say except this: No, you aren't an arrogant jackass, you have passed that line and live on a completely different level.

 

[Bass Mule]

The guitarist had sex with the bouncer's wife.

 

[MOTORHEADBANGER]

So the insurance situation in America is MY fault? I'm some kind of bad guy because WE have allowed the insurance industry to run amok?

All I did was point out the obvious, I had no more to do with why it is the obvious than you did.

As for me being an arrogant jackass...would that be because I learned to work the system to my advantage, of would it be because you didn't?

Alright, that's it. I can see that you're obviously not going to see the completely arrogant and conceited tone that you have had in all of your posts. You have managed to take a somewhat serious discussion about an unfortunate event, and have filled it with conjecture based on your narrow-minded views of others compared to your pompous self. We should all bow down to you, sir, since you have clearly figured out how to take the "system" to your advantage.

I envy someone who has infinite insight into all these financial and legal issues, and the people who people who are too "foolish" to get premium health insurance or can't afford it clearly deserve their fate and financial troubles. They should have listened to your wonderful insight that you have graced us in this particular thread. In the words of Gene Wilder, Good day, Sir!

***To the original poster, I am very sorry for your friends loss and the derailment of this thread due to others who are less considerate of others. I hope that your friend is able to straighten out this ordeal.