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Gig gone horribly wrong - last Friday night

...You have managed to take a somewhat serious discussion...

This is just the first of many mistaken assumptions you've made my friend. How can we have a serious discussion based on a single short blurb from a stranger posted on a public forum? Short answer...we can't, but don't let that keep you from dogpiling. I've heard it's all the rage these days.

As for my "infinite insight"...I was once a judgmental cheeseknob just like you, then through no fault of my own, spent 18 months unable to walk, endured 9 surgeries on my left leg, 10 more on the right, and 12 years after the fact can still kinda sorta get around on what's left of my legs, but only because I'm too effing proud to let the so called medical experts have both of them, which they constantly tell me I'd be better off without. They keep telling me they fear I'm going to throw a blood clot and die. I keep telling them I fear being dependent on friends and family because I have no legs more than I fear death so I'll take my limited mobility, and my chances. Every night when I lay down I say thanks for another day and every morning when I wake up I say thanks for another chance. And I never forget to plaster a smile on this mug because every minute of the last 12 odd years has been a gift and I am eternally grateful for each and every one.

Everything I know about the medical, legal, and insurance industries comes from personal experience. I know I need good insurance because when I had mediocre insurance I wound up paying off over 200K in medical expenses my cheapass policy didn't cover, and the difference in what I was paying and what I should have been paying was less than $150 a year so cry me a river about how hard it is to afford good insurance instead of the cheapest crap you can find. That's all changed now and let me tell you, it's a real chore to find an insurance company willing to write a health policy on the likes of me. In truth all it takes is enough money and they would write a health policy on a corpse because they can always come up with infinite reasons to stall or outright deny any claim, no matter how legit.

All I was trying to do was get home after working all week when some turd in a compact who wanted to bump little heads with a pickup truck caused a huge clusterf*** of a smashup and I got caught up in their stupidity. Here's the best part, because I was the only survivor of their little set-to who had auto insurance, I went from surviving victim to callous murdering b****** (at least according to the lawyers suing on behalf of the dead people), with 3 wrongful death civil suits to fight, not because I was in any way at fault, I was sued for no other reason than I was involved, alive, and had insurance. The guy who actually caused the wreck didn't have insurance and was barely injured, and he walked away clean because the families of the dead were so hot for the millions their lawyers promised them they agreed to drop all criminal charges against him so the civil trial(s) could go forward posthaste. I lost just about everything before it was all over, including my house and most of my life savings.

Yes, I sued as well, but only recovered about 1/3rd of what I lost, not including the loss of my ability to get around, which prevented me from ever working in my chosen profession but my job was already gone because my (former) employer couldn't hold a slot open for the 5 years it took me to get back up walking without crutches, cane, etc. If you can call what I do walking. Wifey and I joke about my monkey boy shamble, but hey, if you can't laugh at yourself what's the point. I've got some true news for you kid, it is beyond your ability to imagine the blow to one's ego going from former recon marine with a perfect job, wife, home, health, etc, to some twisted misanthrope who must endure the whispers, condescending looks, and stifled laughter of strangers. It may not always be fun, but it teaches you so much you would never learn otherwise.

While I'm sure there was some cosmic reason or logic behind what happened to me, my attitude to which you take such exception was forged in that same fire so I tend to make light of situations where someone is claiming horrendous damages for something as middling as a broken foot and an easy to replace guitar.

I also tend to get preachy at times, but strictly from a desire to help someone avoid the things I wish someone had schooled me in BEFORE the fact. That coupled with my limited ability to properly communicate my thoughts via the written word, often render my intent misconstrued.

Since that is obviously the case here, please accept my apologies for adding to the confusion rather than offering anything constructive to the discussion.

Sorry this ran so long. Peace out...
 
C'mon people, have you ever tried to sue someone? Really? I don't think any lawyer would take this on, because the chances of winning a LAWSUIT are super slim in this scenario.

There are plenty of plaintiffs' personal injury lawyers who would jump at the chance to take this case. And they would take it on a contingency basis, so the out-of-pocket expenses for the injured party would be minimal.

Also try putting yourself in their shoes... if I was the bar owner or the bouncer and got any legal notice from some random old musician who hurt himself on stage, I'd toss it right in the bin and go on like nothing happened. Alot of people have successfully defended themselves in court by simply ignoring all notifications and not showing up... claim ignorance on all counts and drag it out as long as possible and eventually it gets tossed. Also, not saying I agree with it, just saying be realistic.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Ignoring a summons is a good way to get a default judgment entered against you. Moreover, if you're the bar in this scenario, and you get a default judgment entered against you because you ignored the summons, there is a good chance that the claim would not be covered by your liability insurance, which means that rather than having your insurer defending and settling the claim, your assets would be at risk.
 
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Thats possible. I have no idea what I'm talking about with suing another person in civil court over an injury. But I can relate the legal aspects to that of children & youth service legalese, which you would think would be even stricter since the lives of children are at stake, but deadbeat parents often win court decisions based purely on ignorance and non-attendance, and the lack of any real substantial evidence sends a bruised and beaten child right back home. Now if you are an upstanding tax paying adult who loves their children, but your kid trips down some stairs and another parent turns you in for negligence, your child will be taken away. If you're dirty and shady and beat your kids, but the only evidence is the word of the social worker's intuition (bruises come from somewhere, right?) you have no danger of losing, based purely on lack of evidence.

You don't associate with enough deadbeats ;)

The point I was trying to make, is think twice before jumping on the sue-wagon. Without proper evidence, you could very well get caught up in a sue-countersue-countercountersue circle, in which the lawyers laugh all the way to the bank while both you and the bar owner are left hanging out to dry.
 
Thats possible. I have no idea what I'm talking about with suing another person in civil court over an injury. But I can relate the legal aspects to that of children & youth service legalese,

This is not a family court situation. You're making a mistake in trying to draw analogies between this situation and whatever your family court experience may be.
 
This is just the first of many mistaken assumptions you've made my friend. How can we have a serious discussion based on a single short blurb from a stranger posted on a public forum? Short answer...we can't, but don't let that keep you from dogpiling. I've heard it's all the rage these days.

As for my "infinite insight"...I was once a judgmental cheeseknob just like you, then through no fault of my own, spent 18 months unable to walk, endured 9 surgeries on my left leg, 10 more on the right, and 12 years after the fact can still kinda sorta get around on what's left of my legs, but only because I'm too effing proud to let the so called medical experts have both of them, which they constantly tell me I'd be better off without. They keep telling me they fear I'm going to throw a blood clot and die. I keep telling them I fear being dependent on friends and family because I have no legs more than I fear death so I'll take my limited mobility, and my chances. Every night when I lay down I say thanks for another day and every morning when I wake up I say thanks for another chance. And I never forget to plaster a smile on this mug because every minute of the last 12 odd years has been a gift and I am eternally grateful for each and every one.

Everything I know about the medical, legal, and insurance industries comes from personal experience. I know I need good insurance because when I had mediocre insurance I wound up paying off over 200K in medical expenses my cheapass policy didn't cover, and the difference in what I was paying and what I should have been paying was less than $150 a year so cry me a river about how hard it is to afford good insurance instead of the cheapest crap you can find. That's all changed now and let me tell you, it's a real chore to find an insurance company willing to write a health policy on the likes of me. In truth all it takes is enough money and they would write a health policy on a corpse because they can always come up with infinite reasons to stall or outright deny any claim, no matter how legit.

All I was trying to do was get home after working all week when some turd in a compact who wanted to bump little heads with a pickup truck caused a huge clusterf*** of a smashup and I got caught up in their stupidity. Here's the best part, because I was the only survivor of their little set-to who had auto insurance, I went from surviving victim to callous murdering b****** (at least according to the lawyers suing on behalf of the dead people), with 3 wrongful death civil suits to fight, not because I was in any way at fault, I was sued for no other reason than I was involved, alive, and had insurance. The guy who actually caused the wreck didn't have insurance and was barely injured, and he walked away clean because the families of the dead were so hot for the millions their lawyers promised them they agreed to drop all criminal charges against him so the civil trial(s) could go forward posthaste. I lost just about everything before it was all over, including my house and most of my life savings.

Yes, I sued as well, but only recovered about 1/3rd of what I lost, not including the loss of my ability to get around, which prevented me from ever working in my chosen profession but my job was already gone because my (former) employer couldn't hold a slot open for the 5 years it took me to get back up walking without crutches, cane, etc. If you can call what I do walking. Wifey and I joke about my monkey boy shamble, but hey, if you can't laugh at yourself what's the point. I've got some true news for you kid, it is beyond your ability to imagine the blow to one's ego going from former recon marine with a perfect job, wife, home, health, etc, to some twisted misanthrope who must endure the whispers, condescending looks, and stifled laughter of strangers. It may not always be fun, but it teaches you so much you would never learn otherwise.

While I'm sure there was some cosmic reason or logic behind what happened to me, my attitude to which you take such exception was forged in that same fire so I tend to make light of situations where someone is claiming horrendous damages for something as middling as a broken foot and an easy to replace guitar.

I also tend to get preachy at times, but strictly from a desire to help someone avoid the things I wish someone had schooled me in BEFORE the fact. That coupled with my limited ability to properly communicate my thoughts via the written word, often render my intent misconstrued.

Since that is obviously the case here, please accept my apologies for adding to the confusion rather than offering anything constructive to the discussion.

Sorry this ran so long. Peace out...

Sorry for your misfortune. But it sounds to me you are taking out allot of your personal anger and issues out on the OP and others who have responded this post...that's not cool.
 
I feel bad about what happened, but....
Okay, here's my take on this; and yes, it's just my opinion: The bouncer was absolutely wrong to physically knock the guy off whatever he was perched on. He should have waited until after the song, then told the band that if they continued to climb on things, they would be shut down and asked to leave.

I'm all for a good show. While up on stage, jump around to your heart's delight. Climb all over your own amps and equipment. But when you start running through the crowd, jumping on tables, etc., then there is a possibility of a lot of bad things happening. You could hit a customer with the neck of your axe. You could kick over drinks onto customers' laps, break glasses, etc. You could also run the risk of falling and injuring YOURSELF (which would probably result in the guitarist suing the club anyway!).

Maybe the club owner didn't like the guy climbing all over everything. Maybe he told the bouncer to tell him not to do that anymore. (Just speculation, of course; and either way the bouncer went way too far.) But imagine somebody coming into your home and jumping around from the coffee table onto other furniture. I, for one, would view that as pretty disrespectful to the host (or in this case, the club owner). I've always been taught to respect other people's possessions, be it a private citizen or a business owner.

it sounds unrealistic that the bouncer just decided to push him down for a laugh. if he did and customers are the venue saw it, guitarist should have a shot..

Leaving aside the question of whether an "upscale restaurant/club" is an appropriate place to be running around jumping on tables, what surprises me is that so many people see fit to rush to judgement on the basis of such scant evidence.

To put things in perspective, whatever the true facts of this episode might be, we don't have them here.

What we have is an email, reportedly from one of the aggreived parties, who has a vested interest in taking the moral high ground and making the best legal case they possibly can in pursuit of damages. Said email has then been posted on this board (most probably verbatim, but how would we know?) by somebody who wasn't even there at the time.

Whatever else may be the truth of the matter we only have information from one side of the arguement that has been filtered....twice!

Unless I missed something, everyone seems to be assuming it can be proven (even that it's a fact) that the bouncer pushed the mr rocker.

Unless there’s some seriously positive testimony from unbiased patrons (not the band members), a judge would have to consider how easily mr rocker doing acrobatics on a narrow fence rail could slip.

Doesn’t necessarily matter that the bouncer may have been standing there reminding mr rocker to stop jumping on the woodwork.
All of the above. We don't really know what happened.
 
There are plenty of plaintiffs' personal injury lawyers who would jump at the chance to take this case. And they would take it on a contingency basis, so the out-of-pocket expenses for the injured party would be minimal.
Notwithstanding the late night TV ads, attorneys don't really accept speculative cases on contingency, and nearly never a case they think may go to trial.

They take on cases that represent well-trodden legal ground, where the facts and fault are relatively clear, and where they believe that the litigation will be a short process leading to a prompt settlement. Auto accidents where one driver was clearly intoxicated and the other wasn't are a great example.

Based on what we've read about this case, facts and fault don't seem clear. Despite the very emotional assertions otherwise, it's tough to successfully sue a bouncer for assault since their job description reasonably includes actions some people may interpret as assault. And we don't know much about what led up to the incident.

The discovery period in this case would not be trivial, and AFAIK there's no statute, so if it ultimately went to trial it would come down to the jury's dynamic. And you just never know what a jury will do.

I'm not an attorney, but I pay a lot of them.
 
Why didn't you say so? Are you a personal injury attorney? How long have you been practicing? In your professional opinion, would it be a good business decision to accept this case on a contingency fee basis?

You may be able to provide some credibility to either position here - more so than I can, certainly.
 
Why didn't you say so? Are you a personal injury attorney? How long have you been practicing? In your professional opinion, would it be a good business decision to accept this case on a contingency fee basis?

The reason I usually do not say that I am a lawyer is because people then start asking me for my professional opinion for free. ;)

In all seriousness, although I have defended personal injury cases in the past, I do not practice personal injury law, do not work on a contingency basis, and am not admitted to practice in California, so I am not in a position to give any "professional opinion" on this particular case. But as general proposition, I don't think that it is nearly as difficult as you make it out to be to get an attorney to take a case on a contingency basis when you're talking about an individual injured on a business premises by the actions of an employee of the business.
 
I hired an attourney a couple of weeks ago to deal with some real estate issues. No offense meant to you Febs but when I entered the office it was all about the money. 2500.00 retainer spent at the rate of 200.00 per hour and I would assume that is a reasonable rate. This was before he had a clue what I needed. If you have to seek legal representation you should be ready to put out some cash up front if you can't get help on a contingenct basis.
 
The reason I usually do not say that I am a lawyer is because people then start asking me for my professional opinion for free. ;)

Haha be glad you don't work in the IT industry. When people ask me why I'm wearing a pager, I just tell them I'm a doctor :D And you'd be amazed at what people will believe when they think the words are coming from a doctor's mouth (not even medical related)

Also, this thread just reminded me of a run-in a friend of mine had with a bouncer last year. We live in a very bar-happy neighborhood, and I guess there was some drama going on at a bar that was spilling out onto the street. My friend (with a number of other friends) were passing by on the sidewalk, my friend trying to light a cigarette... a bouncer with his back turned shoved him hard enough in the shoulder to knock the cig and lighter out of his hand. Not knowing there was something going on at the bar, he turned around to confront the bouncer, and swiftly received an elbow to the face, breaking his nose. Cops were just starting to pull up to deal with the current situation, and every cop ignored my friend and wouldn't take a statement, assuming he was just another drunken bar patron. He tried briefly to pursue legal action, but with no luck, since the only "evidence" was his friend's testimonies. Thats why I'm saying good luck getting anything, because I doubt it'll be possible.

But please OP, if we're keeping this thread alive, post updates if you hear of anything new.
 
Despite the very emotional assertions otherwise, it's tough to successfully sue a bouncer for assault since their job description reasonably includes actions some people may interpret as assault.

Bouncers get no breaks on normal assault and battery law. Everything that applies to a normal citizen in the streets applies to a bouncer in a bar.

...and I wouldn't necessarily be certain this is a civil case only either. If the injured party has some witnesses and is willing to make himself a squeaky wheel around the prosecutors office I suspect some criminal charges might be found too.
 
Bouncers get no breaks on normal assault and battery law. Everything that applies to a normal citizen in the streets applies to a bouncer in a bar.
Yes, that's true, but I think you aren't seeing my main point.

Bouncers work in bars - everybody is drunk, a lot of people are disorderly, and few people are seeing or thinking clearly. In just about any altercation involving a bouncer, there's likely to be twenty different versions of the story. Nobody wins in litigation like that, except the attorneys.

If the injured party has some witnesses
There's the key, definitely. But if you think about it, if you are the bouncer's attorney and the plaintiff's witnesses are all "drunk bar-goers"...well, that's not such a bad situation to be in, is it?
 
Lawyers are vampires sucking the life out of their clients and the system to benefit themselves and themselves only. no one wins except the lawyer in 90% of the cases out there. The system was put in place by lawyers to benefit lawyers...the suffering of people is a commodity used to fatten their wallets...that's it...

We all "have" to use them from time to time because the system that they put in place mandates it...It's one of the biggest scams ever created...they all know it...we all know it...but there's nothing we can do...because Law has become a crime...and the legal system is the modern day mafia...

whew!...now that was an off topic rant if I've ever heard one...lol
 
This is just the first of many mistaken assumptions you've made my friend. How can we have a serious discussion based on a single short blurb from a stranger posted on a public forum? Short answer...we can't, but don't let that keep you from dogpiling. I've heard it's all the rage these days.

As for my "infinite insight"...I was once a judgmental cheeseknob just like you, then through no fault of my own, spent 18 months unable to walk, endured 9 surgeries on my left leg, 10 more on the right, and 12 years after the fact can still kinda sorta get around on what's left of my legs, but only because I'm too effing proud to let the so called medical experts have both of them, which they constantly tell me I'd be better off without. They keep telling me they fear I'm going to throw a blood clot and die. I keep telling them I fear being dependent on friends and family because I have no legs more than I fear death so I'll take my limited mobility, and my chances. Every night when I lay down I say thanks for another day and every morning when I wake up I say thanks for another chance. And I never forget to plaster a smile on this mug because every minute of the last 12 odd years has been a gift and I am eternally grateful for each and every one.

Everything I know about the medical, legal, and insurance industries comes from personal experience. I know I need good insurance because when I had mediocre insurance I wound up paying off over 200K in medical expenses my cheapass policy didn't cover, and the difference in what I was paying and what I should have been paying was less than $150 a year so cry me a river about how hard it is to afford good insurance instead of the cheapest crap you can find. That's all changed now and let me tell you, it's a real chore to find an insurance company willing to write a health policy on the likes of me. In truth all it takes is enough money and they would write a health policy on a corpse because they can always come up with infinite reasons to stall or outright deny any claim, no matter how legit.

All I was trying to do was get home after working all week when some turd in a compact who wanted to bump little heads with a pickup truck caused a huge clusterf*** of a smashup and I got caught up in their stupidity. Here's the best part, because I was the only survivor of their little set-to who had auto insurance, I went from surviving victim to callous murdering b****** (at least according to the lawyers suing on behalf of the dead people), with 3 wrongful death civil suits to fight, not because I was in any way at fault, I was sued for no other reason than I was involved, alive, and had insurance. The guy who actually caused the wreck didn't have insurance and was barely injured, and he walked away clean because the families of the dead were so hot for the millions their lawyers promised them they agreed to drop all criminal charges against him so the civil trial(s) could go forward posthaste. I lost just about everything before it was all over, including my house and most of my life savings.

Yes, I sued as well, but only recovered about 1/3rd of what I lost, not including the loss of my ability to get around, which prevented me from ever working in my chosen profession but my job was already gone because my (former) employer couldn't hold a slot open for the 5 years it took me to get back up walking without crutches, cane, etc. If you can call what I do walking. Wifey and I joke about my monkey boy shamble, but hey, if you can't laugh at yourself what's the point. I've got some true news for you kid, it is beyond your ability to imagine the blow to one's ego going from former recon marine with a perfect job, wife, home, health, etc, to some twisted misanthrope who must endure the whispers, condescending looks, and stifled laughter of strangers. It may not always be fun, but it teaches you so much you would never learn otherwise.

While I'm sure there was some cosmic reason or logic behind what happened to me, my attitude to which you take such exception was forged in that same fire so I tend to make light of situations where someone is claiming horrendous damages for something as middling as a broken foot and an easy to replace guitar.

I also tend to get preachy at times, but strictly from a desire to help someone avoid the things I wish someone had schooled me in BEFORE the fact. That coupled with my limited ability to properly communicate my thoughts via the written word, often render my intent misconstrued.

Since that is obviously the case here, please accept my apologies for adding to the confusion rather than offering anything constructive to the discussion.

Sorry this ran so long. Peace out...

Judgmental cheeseknob.:smug: I must commend you for your choice of insult. I am sorry for your misfortune, and I see where some of these things are upsetting to you, but your choice of words is key. There is a difference between offering a person some helpful insight based on your own experience and being overly sarcastic and cynical while not taking into consideration how it may sound to others.

Also I was not "crying you a river over costs." The reason I pointed out how insurance is costly is the simple truth that quite a few literally do not have enough money for good insurance, and some do not have the money for insurance period. It is not a pity party about how hard it is to make ends meet. There actually are many people who have a difficult time just trying to get enough money for a weeks worth of food and supplies. When one is in that position, premium health care is not an option. I do not doubt that you have gone through quite a bit of pain due to your situation, but there is no sense in condemning those who have no choice in the matter.

With all that said, I do not wish to goad you into a heated argument just for the sake of it. What has been done is done, and I only ask that in the future you think through your wording first. I sincerely hope that we can set all of this aside and not let this issue make us bear hatred toward each other. Apology accepted and God bless you.

-Connor