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GK Question

#41
scottfeldstein said:
Go ahead and try putting 200w into one of those drivers. I'm sure the speaker will reach maximum excursion and start farting before you get anywhere near 200w.

When I say "full potential," I mean how loud you can make the thing go before it reaches max excursion. It's how many watts you can put into it before it starts to break up and sound like crap. And when you put an 8 ohm 4x10 cab with an 8 ohm 2x10 cab, the 2x10 cab will start farting far before the 4x10 one will. Thus, you will never be able to reach the 4x10s maximum volume because to do so will mean you're pushing the 2x10 beyond the point where it sounds good.
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This is called power compression, the point where the speaker has trouble taking more power and before it "farts out". The driver operates in a non linear mode and the excess power you apply is just generating heat.
Take a speaker cab loaded with four 10" guitar drivers and a 210 designed for bass guitar......which one fails at its "power rating" when you subject it to bass guitar? I am not generalizing on the thread but speaking to a specific model and brand. :)
If you are speaking in general terms than we can agree that extreme caution needs to be used. :D


I understand where you are coming from with your MB210/MBE210 experience. Understand that IF you need the full capabilities of the 410 then you have the wrong setup as you have very loud requirements. You should (with G-K) be using the 1001RB or 2001RB not a micro amp?
BTW I have the NEO 412, would now have rather had two NEO 212s. But either way I only have the Fusion 550 and can only give either setup only 500 watts, not their "full potential". But then I can't get over 10:30 without everyone yelling at me for being too loud or driving customers out of the bars? :D

Come to think....the amp hasn't been over 8:30 in a year! Need an outdoor gig.
 
#43
scottfeldstein said:
Heh. Well the knuckleheads I have been rehearsing with necessitate me using the MB500 with an Ampeg 810. Under those conditions I've been running the master at 3 o'clock and the channel volume at noon.
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OUCH!!!:eek::help: I'm guessing ear protection is a absolute necessity! ;) I miss our female keys player, she always gave dirty looks when I exceeded 9:30......she could feel the breese up her skirt :hiding:
 
#46
No. Watts are distributed equally between cabinets of the same ohm rating. Two 8 ohm cabinets split the watts. So do two 4 ohm cabs. Mixing them is another story. Theoretically if you had an 8 ohm cab with two speakers and a 4 ohm cab with one speaker, it might work out that all speakers receive the same watts. But most people use cabs of the same ohm rating where watts are split equally between cabs.
 
#47
I am not an electronics/speaker guru, but, it doesn't make sense to me. I assume that all of the speakers in a 410 or 210 are wired in series to the speakon connecter. You then connect the cabinet to the amp (wired internally in the case of the mb210). So, the two 8 ohm loads equal 4 ohms. Since it is a single channel amp, how does it seperate the two different 8 ohm loads? Once everything is connected, creating a series of 6 speakers (2 16 ohm, and 4 32 ohm), shouldn't the watts be evenly distributed?
I may be way off, but, I just don't see how a single amp source knows the difference to send (in this case) 250 watts to each cabinet. It makes more sense for it to split it evenly to each speaker that creates the load.
 
#49
busapilot911 said:
I am not an electronics/speaker guru, but, it doesn't make sense to me. I assume that all of the speakers in a 410 or 210 are wired in series to the speakon connecter. You then connect the cabinet to the amp (wired internally in the case of the mb210). So, the two 8 ohm loads equal 4 ohms. Since it is a single channel amp, how does it seperate the two different 8 ohm loads? Once everything is connected, creating a series of 6 speakers (2 16 ohm, and 4 32 ohm), shouldn't the watts be evenly distributed?
I may be way off, but, I just don't see how a single amp source knows the difference to send (in this case) 250 watts to each cabinet. It makes more sense for it to split it evenly to each speaker that creates the load.
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In bold is your answer. The amp just "puts out" the power. 16 ohm speakers "draw more power" or to be correct present a heavier load to the amps output than 32 ohm speakers. The final load of the cab (impedance load in ohms) is what loads the amps outputs.
Simply, which put out more light 4 25 watt light incandescent bulbs or 2 50 watt light incandescent bulbs? They should both put out the same amount of light for their individual 100 watt draws. :) This example is about power distribution ONLY. Change the "bulbs" to two different types and the light output will change but the power used remains the same.
 
#50
So really the only issue with combining a, say...neo 410 to the mb210 would be that the 410 isn't getting worked as hard as the 210? It is not working the 210 too hard, but, it isn't powering the 410 as much as it can handle, right?
This shouldn't cause any damage nor would it sound bad, correct? (sorry, if this sounds dumb)
 
#51
The problem with hooking up a 410 (presuming it's 8 ohms, like the internal 210) is that you're going never going to be able to push it much, never going to get your money's worth audio-wise. And if you tried to crank it up as loud as a 410 can go, you'll blow the 210 to get there.

So basically you're incurring the full expense, weight, size of a 410 cab...but only getting a portion of the sound out of it that you could theoretically get. Because it's forever limited by the 210 chained to it.
 
#52
Sorry that I chimed in on this (usually just a lurker), but, I am curious because I have a 700 rbII and a neo 410 which I love, but, sometimes need a smaller rig for certain places (and hauling around). I am debating on getting a neo 115 and just using that with the 700 rb for the smaller stuff, the 410 for the mid sized stuff, and all of it for large. The other option (reason for asking the above questions) would be to sell the 700 rb and get the mb210 and use that alone or on top of the 410 for bigger shows. Opinions?
 
#53
busapilot911 said:
So really the only issue with combining a, say...neo 410 to the mb210 would be that the 410 isn't getting worked as hard as the 210? It is not working the 210 too hard, but, it isn't powering the 410 as much as it can handle, right?
This shouldn't cause any damage nor would it sound bad, correct? (sorry, if this sounds dumb)
Click to expand...

The amount of sound will go up more than adding a 210 and yes the 410 will not be stressed as much as the 210.
With the same amp the 210 will actually see less stress than being on its own.

scottfeldstein said:
The problem with hooking up a 410 (presuming it's 8 ohms, like the internal 210) is that you're going never going to be able to push it much, never going to get your money's worth audio-wise. And if you tried to crank it up as loud as a 410 can go, you'll blow the 210 to get there.

So basically you're incurring the full expense, weight, size of a 410 cab...but only getting a portion of the sound out of it that you could theoretically get. Because it's forever limited by the 210 chained to it.
Click to expand...

True but you also reduce your risk of over-driving the 410 and 210 while using the same amp head. We really don't and should not as bass players be "Maxing" out our cabs just because the numbers are there? :)
 
#54
It's a sound idea...up until you get to using them both together. Putting aside all of the other issues one might or might not have with using mixed cabinetry, one thing is sure: you're never going to be able to push to your 410 more watts than your 115 can handle--far less than you could do otherwise. And if you tried, your 115 would be in danger. This is very common, apparently--people pushing their 15 beyond its capacity because it's near their ankles and they can't hear it. All they can hear is their 410 which is humming along just fine and just sitting there saying "give me more watts!" While their 15 is on the floor being destroyed.

I'd either get a second 410, or get two smaller matched cabs. 212s seem to be a good middle ground these days. Big enough to use on their own, large enough that a pair of them can knock a house down. GK makes a nice one in their Neo line.

But if you must use your existing 410 and you want another cab that is smaller than a 410, get...something that can handle closer to the same power. A single 15 is pretty far from that. A 212 might be the closest.

Again, no promises on other audio issues like frequencies dropping out, etc. You'd just have to try it and see.
 

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