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Double Bass Glowing tones

Sep 24, 2011
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Hi all

I get that these are notes that set off resonant tones/sympathetic vibrations on other strings, however are they typically clearer on some and not on others? On my DB, I can clearly hear the low G (on the E string) making the G string vibrate, however on the Bb on the A string doesn't quite "ring" as well. Maybe I am not interpreting the attached chart correctly? It is also interesting how this as an exercise helps the memory of the wood, and when done consistently and in tune, helps to "shape" the wood, so to speak.
 
I tried it. You can definitely hear the D on the G string sounding. It's certainly not as strong as the open G vibrating when you play the G on the E. Try playing the Bb louder. It's not the Bb that's causing that D to resonate, it's the D's you create in the upper partials on the "Bb" string that cause it to vibrate.
 
When you play the low G on E string, the second harmonic of the low G sets the fundamental of the G string into sympathetic resonance, so this is very pronounced.

When you play the low Bb on the A string, it is the 5th harmonic of the Bb which sets the 3rd harmonic of the G string into resonance. The higher the harmonic, the less powerful it is. So the sympathetic resonance is much weaker in this case.
 
A few more explanations.

In the second case (low Bb played on the A string), the note that causes sympathetic resonance is the D, 2 octaves and a major 3rd higher (5th harmonic of Bb), which coincides with the D, 1 octave and a 5th above open G (3rd harmonic).

This also the same note than the D 2 octaves above open D (4th harmonic) which sets the D string in sympathetic resonance too. The sympathetic resonance of the D string is actually more pronounced than that of the G string, because it involves a lower harmonic.
 
Sympathetic resonance caused by harmonics 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12 indicates that the note is in tune.

Sympathetic resonance caused by 7 or 11 harmonics would indicated a flat note.

For example, if you play an in tune C on the A string, you would obtain a strong sympathetic resonance of the G string. If play your C a little flat, you may set the 7th harmonic of the D string in (weak) resonance.

All this is of course more audible when playing with the bow.
 
One more precision. Sympathetic resonances involving high harmonics of the played will be more pronounced if the string is bowed close to the bridge, as this generated a stronger content of high harmonics.
 
So, when you say harmonics 2, 3, etc. are you referring to the harmonics in the linked chart, Papageno?
And what do you mean by "third harmonic of the G?"? If you can point me to a link, to read up on, it'll save my asking further questions, like why isn't the Ab or Db shown yet the Eb is?? Like I said, I am probably touching on a much deeper discussion, so happy to be directed to read up!

Thanks again.
 
Harmonic 2, 3, etc... (for me) at the ones one gets when dividing the length in 2, 3, etc..., whose frequency is the fundamental multiplied by 2, 3, etc...

3rd harmonic of G is the note whose frequency is 3 times that of G, ie. one octave and a 5th higher than G, which is a D.
 
it'll save my asking further questions, like why isn't the Ab or Db shown yet the Eb is??
The harmonics of Ab are (primarily) Ab, C, Eb (notes of the major Ab triad), none of which is a harmonic of the open strings. Same for Db (harmonics are Db, Ab, F).

The harmonics of Eb are Eb, G, Bb, so the G harmonic (8th harmonic) of the G string can be set to sympathetically resonate when playing the Eb on D string (correponding to the 5th harmonic of Eb).

Coming back to the Ab and Db, I believe that the absence of sympathetic resonance for these notes contribute to give them some "thumpiness" with less sustain and brilliance than the A and G neighboring Ab, or the C and D neighboring Db. Same consideration holds for the thumpiness of the low F.
 
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To enrich the debate, I'd add that my luthier showed me once that he always tries to set the lenght of the tailgut so that the part of string between bridge and tailpiece would be in tune with the open string*. I came to the understanding that with double bass, the more everything vibrates, the richer and louder the acoustic sound would be. This trick would also adds to the difference of clarity between, let's say, D (everything vibrates, D shines) and Db (nothing vibrates, Db sounds darker). It really is fascinating.

* There's more to it, the tailpiece also impacts 'stiffness' of the string below fingers, and also impacts the overall force that the strings bear down onto bridge, which bears down onto body, while this force must be optimal to sound right yet not to damage the body. I won't experiment with this on my own.
 
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I have my doubts about the shaping of the wood thing. I think it is not really shaping the wood or make the wood of your instrument mature as some say.
I agree. I suspect all these stories about shaping the wood of music instruments actually are urban legends, and what is going on is not instruments improving by being played, but rather musicians improving by playing their instrument.
 
Papageno, don't your doubts above fly in the face of conventional wisdom about a new instrument developing more tone and less stiffness with time? Or even an older instrument after fitting with big patches or a new bass bar? IME a bass can be "woken up" by bowing heavily the notes played chromatically up and down the E string that is directly over the bass bar and produces the most powerful vibrations throughout the instrument. Loudness is a different matter. Through its design, materials and construction a new instrument either starts its life being powerful or (to some degree) not, and will not produce more power as it matures. Of course a good set-up is necessary for best efficiency.

Incidently one of my most memorable quotes from a Gary Karr masterclass years ago is that "basses are often lazy instruments played by lazy people."
 
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My personal take is, there are two things:
I had my bass "vibrationsentdämpft" - don't know the correct translation, my take is: "opened up by vibration", by mounting a "motor" to the bridge. And I'd say it had a noticeable effect.
But the part above where the instrument "get's tuned by playing in tune" - I think that's a bit too much. I'm with Papageno on that one.

I think, propreoception and your subconscious are at work there and you relate the correct memorization of the feeling to "the wood memorized the correct note"
 
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Papageno, don't your doubts above fly in the face of conventional wisdom about a new instrument developing more tone and less stiffness with time? Or even an older instrument after fitting with big patches or a new bass bar? IME a bass can be "woken up" by bowing heavily the notes played chromatically up and down the E string that is directly over the bass bar and produces the most powerful vibrations throughout the instrument. Loudness is a different matter. Through its design, materials and construction a new instrument either starts its life being powerful or (to some degree) not, and will not produce more power as it matures. Of course a good set-up is necessary for best efficiency.

Incidently one of my most memorable quotes from a Gary Karr masterclass years ago is that "basses are often lazy instruments played by lazy people."
David, you're bringing up a very interesting point.

I am a scientist and it is part of my job to question, try to understand, and sometimes challenge things that are considered "conventional wisdom".

In a scientist's eyes, the double bass is a very complex mechanical device, made out of some extremely complex materials (wood), and played and listened to by some even more complex systems (human beings). Our perception of the quality of an instrument is the result of an intricate mix of all these consitutents. Among those, while we have some reasonably good knowledge of the acoustics of a double, and (to a lesser extent) of the structure and properties of wood(s), I think that one can safely claim that the least well understood elements of the chain is the human brain.

The quality of instrument is something that is very difficult to define quatitatively, to the point we cannot devise and construct an apparatus that would reliably determine which instruments are excellent and which ones are merely good (really bad instruments can be identified quite easily though). This suggests that a very significant part what makes us telling whether an instrument is good or remarkable is actually going on in our brain.

There is a rather wide consensus (which I share) that (some) old instruments are a among the finests, and also, as you point out, that new instruments "wake up" in their early life. Now, I don't see any scientific evidence for any explaination more than another.

Concerning the fact that ancient instruments are "better" than modern ones, it seems to me that in all times bass makers have constructed instruments of variable quality, ranging from mediocre to stellar. I find it not surprising that the ones that have survived to our time are the best ones, as they were the most valued, most expensive, and most properly maintained. Another aspect concerns the mechanical properties of the woods. Wood, as a biological material, is highly complex, and naturally evolves with time, and it is very plausible, that this plays an important role in the high quality of ancient instruments. But we have no means to say that this because this instruments have been played, and played well.

Concerning new instruments, I find it very plausible that what we perceive as "waking up" is due in part to the natural evolution of the wood on one hand, and to the musician becoming more familiar with the instrument on the other hand. From what I know for the materials science of wood, I agree that subjecting to bass and the wood to acoustic vibrations may contribute to things settling to their optimal place, but the idea that the bass has to be played in tune, or chomatically, for this purpose, is simply not really plausible.

So for me, many of the things that belong to "conventional wisdom" concerning the quality of music instruments are actually pure speculations biased by subjective emotional considerations.

But none very important anyhow, since we are not playing music for our scientific enlightment, but for the emotions we convey in that way.
 
Flipping through Incredibly Useful Exercises book last week, I tried this exercise and have modified it a little for daily warmups for hand, shoulder and arm calibration . Following directions for bowing in the book , I've changed the fingering a bit. Start on the E string , G (first finger) , A (4) , then Bb(2) and B(4). The aim is to set posture, shoulder and left hand so that both pitches are right with a well-formed back, scapula down, breathing easily, thumb comfortable, using the harmonics for tuning. I want to have my hand come to the right place by getting the kinetic chain right. Similar fingerings on the A and D string , skip the C# on the G but play the D(1) and E(4) , and finally the A(1) , then back down. Slowly, smoothly and observing the changes in the kinetic chain throughout. Bonus points for keeping head up above the D on G string! Even after only a couple days, I find I'm using it more and more to check tuning while playing whenever possible. It gives you a lot more reference points up and down the fingerboard.
Also started working on it with fretless electric, where not damping adjacent strings is trickier but the principle works.

Kudos to Papageno for clearly describing sympathetic vibration and resonance in bite-size pieces, pity it's not in the book. Glowing tones work to help intonation because the resonances in the free strings need a frequency very close to their own to drive them - I don't get much response further than 10 cents away, and response within a couple of cents peaks very strongly. This high "Q" is characteristic of the vibrating string but not the resonant box.
 

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