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Godin A4 Help

Fellow Godin A4 players,

I very much need your help diagnosing a problem by confirming a suspicion.

I just acquired from eBay a used 2004 Godin A4, and noticed upon receipt that the treble slider seems to have no effect on sound (video: )

Can someone who plays a Godin A4 confirm that on his/her instrument the treble slider does make a difference?

The wonderful people at L.R. Baggs have already serviced the preamp, then provided me with a replacement preamp, with no improvement. So it's not a preamp problem, and it's not an amp problem (I tried several amps), the only thing remaining is the piezo pickup. But that would be (1) Kinda weird (2) a problem because the part no longer exist and (3) changing for a different pickup may not be easy. So, before I go down that path, I want to make sure that what I am observing is not normal for this instrument.

Thank you for your help.

Yann
 
All I can say is that the test you are running is probably not a good test for the treble control. In my experience the treble control on a bass (and for the record I do not own an A4 nor have I played one in a store) is going to have its most affect on the sound when you are plucking notes, not during the sustain portion of a note. Depending on where the treble band is set a bass may have very little energy in the treble band except when plucking and maybe even then only with rounds. And a pick?! If I were you I would try listening while actually playing a rapid passage of a song. Play the passage with the treble maxed and then play it again with it cut and I suspect you will hear a difference. On my basses I find that the primary function of the treble control is to limit finger noise on roundwound strings and fret clatter when I really bang the strings.
 
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I have an A4 SA, which is a later model with a slightly different preamp and control panel, so the comparison may not be 100% exact. However, I just replicated your test, and on mine there is an enormous difference in the top end sound between the treble slider being all the way up (full boost) and all the way down (full cut) even while the note sustains. It certainly sounds like there is something not quite right with yours.
 
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Khutch makes a very valid point, but with my Fender Jazz (also strung with flats), playing with the treble EQ on my amp (± 15db @ 8kHtz) while plucking long tones is quite audible.

I am very appreciative and grateful to ajn for going to the trouble of reproducing my test. If anybody out there with an original A4 (R L Baggs ribbon transducer and preamp; no round buttons next to the sliders) could add to the discussion, that would be wonderful. Thank you.
 
Godin players,

The mystery continues, with two TalkBass members using the older model of Godin A4s (LR Baggs preamp) reporting different results.

Member Randy Molson wrote:
Happy to help. My A4 acts the same with your long note test.
The preamp is running as designed. The frequency isolated by the treble slider is beyond the dominant frequency range of a bass or guitar. Heck, it is even beyond the frequency of a harmonic note.

I am no expert on A4s or Baggs, but one use of the A4 treble slider is to bring out string noise effects. If you are playing a piece or setting where you want your A4 to sound clanky or give a tic-toc bass effect, you zero the low and mid, and max the treble.

Since the mid and low sliders work with the dominant string frequencies, they grossly overwhelm the treble range. So the treble control has no noticeable effect unless the mid and lows are zeroed.

My theory is that the Baggs treble range was designed specifically to manipulate string effects. If the treble was to instead include a portion of the dominate string frequency, then it would not be able to manipulate string effects - the physics would not work.

Hope that solves the mystery with that Baggs pre.

While Master Bass (Denny) wrote:
My treble slider worked just like you would expect, and really boosted/cut the high response. I'd say that there is a problemo with yours my friend. You may want to give it a shot of pot cleaner...just to see if it helps.

So, I am still puzzled. Is my new (to me) Godin working correctly, or am I missing some top end that I could be having? Could it be that both Randy's and my piezo have aged poorly, and Denny's is how it should be?

I would love to hear more from Godin players.

Yann

And let me repeat my additional observation that when I compare the effect of the treble knob on my practice amp (not the in-board preamp) using both of my fretless basses, there is a vast difference between the Bagg-Godin A4 and the DiMarzio-Fender. The treble knob makes a big difference with the Fender, and nothing with the Godin. This lead me to wonder if there is something wrong with the ribbon piezo. When a ribbon piezo delaminates, do you get all or nothing, or can you get a loss of highs?
 
I wonder if Baggs changed the design treble frequency range following 2004

What Godin Tech Support wrote me was: "If there was a problem with the ribbon pickup, you just wouldn't get any sound. The LR Baggs preamp is not very sensitive in the treble range". (Which seems to contradict what Denny reported).

On their hand, the LR Baggs Folks concluded: "it sounds to me like the Treble EQ may just not be very audible with that instrument and/or set of strings.It really looks like everything seems to be working correctly- I know that this is not a very helpful conclusion for you though. The Lace system in the current A4 is very different, so comparisons should not be made there."

If this were an after-market mod, that would be one thing, but it just seems strange to me that Godin would engineer a model that prominently bears both the Godin and the Baggs name on the face of the instrument, with a treble EQ that is "not very sensitive on this instrument". . . And then, it seems strange to me that (1) Denny (Master Bass) would have a different experience, and (2) my Fender Jazz would have more signal in the high end (similar strings). . . And if Baggs or Godin changed something in 2004, as Randy suggested, you'd think the Tech Support at either place would have known. . . You'd THINK. . .
 
It could be a combination of dead flatwound strings and the the way you are demonstrating it.

I have your exact bass, i.e. A4 fretless with the original LR Baggs transducer. I have also installed a K&K pure transducer and bypass the preamp. This gives a very clean signal that I can further process as required. My best recordings from the A4 come when I use both the K&K and a microphone. No transducer alone will get the acoustic sound you hear unplugged.

I'll see if I can dig out a sound clip.

Davo
 
I don't want to sound like Debbie Downer here, but there are a few issues with this test.

First off, you don't actually play anything. A sustained, open note isn't enough to diagnose the problem. For instance, what if the treble EQ is designed to affect pitches higher than an open G? What's more, we're completely missing the complex harmonics created while fretting (er, fingering) a note. A demonstration playing across the full range of the instrument would be far more helpful. Also, if it were recorded at a quality higher than 240p we'd be able to hear much more.

What's more, you appear to be playing with flatwound strings (I'm guessing D'addario Chromes?) Those are probably the worst strings to test treble controls with. They have virtually no treble to manipulate to begin with. Really, the most obvious thing you'll hear with that setup is an increased hum when you have both hands off the instrument, but that's assuming you're in a situation that would create hum to begin with.

I have an A4 SA, which is a later model with a slightly different preamp and control panel, so the comparison may not be 100% exact. However, I just replicated your test, and on mine there is an enormous difference in the top end sound between the treble slider being all the way up (full boost) and all the way down (full cut) even while the note sustains. It certainly sounds like there is something not quite right with yours.

I should say that I haven't played an A4. However, I have played many other instruments in the A series, and am very familiar with Bagg's systems from that era. And I will say that both companies voice their instruments very uniquely. Both Godin's and Bagg's designs changed DRAMATICALLY over a very short period. In general I find it's for the negative, but a broader EQ range may be one of the changes. A more dramatic treble control may be one of the things that changed. So I have to agree with Randy Molson here. It could just be the nature of the EQ points. I don't know if they'd share it, but if you contacted Bagg's and asked about the frequency (center, cut, boost) of the treble control on that particular pre-amp, the effective range might be above what's produced by your current setup. If numbers aren't your thing, or you can't get the relevant information, there's one simple test; change strings. Some steel roundwounds would provide the most obvious results, but that's kind of the nuclear option. Halfwound or groundwound strings will really open up the frequency range, and that would help you explore the impact of the treble control while not completely destroying the fretless aspect.

If you want help "opening up" the treble on your bass, I can't recommend the dudes at Welcome to Bass Strings Online - Your Custom Bass String Shop... any higher. Explain your problem, and what kind of sound you're shooting for, and they'll set you up with exactly what you need. (We all need to turn to the experts, sometimes.)

As for the pickup, I'd leave it alone. If I recall, it's a ribbon-based design. If that were failing, there would be different signal output between strings (one or more string being drastically louder or quieter than the others,) not general frequency output. Given that all four strings seem to have the same output level, I'd say it's working just fine.

After all that, there's always the remote possibility of a bad slider/solder joint. I know you said you've had it serviced, but hey, ya never know.

Of course, one last thing to keep in mind is that this is the A series - as in Acoustic. These instruments are designed to emulate their larger, fully acoustic brethren. They're not designed to, nor will they ever be truly able to emulate a solid jazz bass or an active Schecter. If you can't get the tone you want out of it, you may want to look into another instrument.

So, that and a nickel won't get you a cup of coffee. But that's my two cents.
 
Davo,

Very interesting...

I have also installed a K&K pure transducer and bypass the preamp.

Could you post more about your mod? I bet that would be of general interest. Did you keep the Baggs system as well (2 output jacks, or, somehow a switchable system), or did you just replace one jack with the other? And, yes, a sound clip would be wonderful. And if you've also kept the Baggs, two comparative sound clips would be even better.

Thank you !
 
Apolicious makes some excellent point. Let me provide a little more information in response.

A sustained, open note isn't enough to diagnose the problem.
True. It isn't because I failed to provide video of the whole/other test, in which i compared doing long notes with the Godin Acoustic and the Fender solid body. Same "not playing anything", same strings, and yet, playing with the treble EQ on the Godin seems to do nothing, while playing with the treble EQ on the Fender does a lot.

As you intuited, when playing a fast passage, the treble EQ is perceptible--barely, but perceptible.


What's more, you appear to be playing with flatwound strings (I'm guessing D'addario Chromes?) Those are probably the worst strings to test treble controls with. They have virtually no treble to manipulate to begin with

String on both the Godin and the Fender are TI Flats. The strings on the Fender are years old, while the strings on the Godin are a week old. My understanding is that, all things being the same, newer strings should be brighter than older strings. so, if anything, I would have expected the string age difference to make the Godin brighter.


I don't know if they'd share it, but if you contacted Bagg's and asked about the frequency (center, cut, boost) of the treble control on that particular pre-amp, the effective range might be above what's produced by your current setup

On the Godin preamp, the Baggs support engineer wrote me that Treble frequency center for the A4 and it is at 6kHz.
For the comparison between the Godin and the Fender, I used the treble knob on my Hartke amp, which is even higher at 8 kHZ. And, believe me, with the Fender (passive, with DiMarzio Jazz pickups), playing with the 8 kHz EQ while doing long tones like in the video above is very noticeable (even though 8 kHz is far above the pitch of the highest note on the bass).

it's a ribbon-based design. If that were failing, there would be different signal output between strings (one or more string being drastically louder or quieter than the others,) not general frequency output. Given that all four strings seem to have the same output level, I'd say it's working just fine.

Very interesting. I know very little about transducers. Do transducers have flat frequency response? Or could it be that this particular model of transducer is a little "hard of hearing" above 6 kHz?

there's always the remote possibility of a bad slider/solder joint. I know you said you've had it serviced, but hey, ya never know.
That has been reasonably ruled out. First I sent the original preamp back to the factory, where it checked out OK, then I went back a second time, and exchanged my preamp for a different unit. So, unless two units had a bad slider/solder joint. . .

Fundamentally, what I am trying to find out is whether there is more to this particular Godin A4 than what is coming out of the jack. I don't think the strings are the problem, because I am so happy with the same strings on my solid body (an ordinary Mexican Fender with rosewood fingerboard), and I did try (a) D'addario round wounds, (b) LaBella tape wounds, and (c) TI Acousticores without significant improvement to the "insensitivity" to the treble EQ.

Thank you to all contributors. Very curious to hear more from Davo on why and how he installed the K&K. (battery-less transducers are new to me).
 
Why did I install the K&K? Well I guess the LR Baggs to my ear didn't produce the lovely acoustic tone that the instrument made. Also I struggled with the 3 band EQ and I didn't know if it was the LRB or the preamp that was the issue. For me the point of an acoustic fretless is to get as near to an URB soound as possible. I know that's the holy grail but it won't stop me trying. So having read reviews and talked to Bob Gollihur in the States, I decided to add the K&K. The beauty is the original LR Baggs is unaffected by this mod and I have two outputs. The mod cost me $114 for the K&K and $45 of labour from a guitar shop so it was relatively cheap.

I'll try and make a new video to show the difference - if that proves tricky I'll do sound clips.

Cheers
Davo
 
I'll try and make a new video to show the difference - if that proves tricky I'll do sound clips.

One thousand thank yous !

I have read some more about the K&K, and it appears that the exact placement of the transducers can make all the difference between a good and a great result. And, because the recommended application method is with crazy glue (they say you can use thin double sided tape for testing, but tone will suffer compared to a super glue installation), wrong placement is fins. So, since you are very happy with the outcome in your instrument, a photo of the transducers in place would be very beneficial. I just had a peek in mine after removing the back plate, and there is an excellent view of the pegs and the bracing, such that a good photo could yield precious information. So, that's two thousand anticipated thank yous.

Your solution keeps sounding better all the time: the K&K Pure Bass 4 strings is now $79 from my favorite internet vendor.
 
OK, so partial success!

Rather annoyingly the LR Baggs/pre-amp isn't working at all. I engaged a new battery and ... nothing. So the A B comparison is dead I'm afraid. I did take photos as requested and I did take a video of the K&K.

The photo shows the K&K pure glued in position:

k&k.jpg


And here is the video: apologies for how low key I am on the video - massively distracted!



Cheers
Davo
 
It could be a combination of dead flatwound strings and the the way you are demonstrating it.

I have your exact bass, i.e. A4 fretless with the original LR Baggs transducer. I have also installed a K&K pure transducer and bypass the preamp. This gives a very clean signal that I can further process as required. My best recordings from the A4 come when I use both the K&K and a microphone. No transducer alone will get the acoustic sound you hear unplugged.

I'll see if I can dig out a sound clip.

Davo
Hello,
I just purchased a used A4 and I love the sound. I detect an imbalance in the output on the D&G strings, not when the open strings are played, but when stopped. I am interested in your mod using the K&K, do you have a link, or clip that you can direct me to? Also, your post is a few years old, do you still use the Godin? Has the bass (and mod) stood the test of time? Many thanks for your help!
Jon Schwabe
 
Hello,
I just purchased a used A4 and I love the sound. I detect an imbalance in the output on the D&G strings, not when the open strings are played, but when stopped. I am interested in your mod using the K&K, do you have a link, or clip that you can direct me to? Also, your post is a few years old, do you still use the Godin? Has the bass (and mod) stood the test of time? Many thanks for your help!
Jon Schwabe
Sorry please disregard, I just saw the videos! Thanks!
 

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