Double Bass Gollihur vs. Upton basses

[Ed S]

Just curious - when you buy any other consumer good (shoes, clothing, appliances, cars), do you make a point of buying American made? (And, do you check what "American made" actually means?) If yes, are you willing to pay any premium/accept any reduced quality in doing so?

As I've said before, I'm a very happy owner of an Upton bass. I just find this an interesting discussion. I think it is entirely fair to say Uptons are likely not the best choice for someone whose primary goal is getting the cheapest bass fast.

Even if one accepts that the bottom level Upton ply is better than the equivalent Gollihur, I think it is a legitimate question whether the Upton is worth nearly twice as much, or in fact, whether the Upton ply is better than the Gollihur carved. I voted with my pocketbook, and am very happy w/ my hybrid Bohemian. If I had the purchase to do over, I do not think I would have chosen differently.

BTW - I have also done business w/ Gollihur, and have nothing but praise for them.

I think a more interesting comparison would be between the New Standard Cleveland/La Scalas, and Upton's higher level axes. From everything I've heard, they are both quite fine instruments, w/ many fans. I wouldn't be shocked, tho, to hear that a prospective buyer in a favorable location willing to take their time and make the effort could come up w/ something that sounds as good for somewhat less than either.

 

[damonsmith]

Yeah, I have always felt Upton was targeted at upper middle class and well off Union workers who buy a new American made truck every couple of years.
Which is a solid market!
A full time musician like myself needs every $ to go into the bass.
In an effort to be dead honest and again, not insult any bass anyone already owns or loves: for my needs I found Upton to be far out of my price range yet not good enough for my needs as a player.
In these discussions, I am trying to imagine what I'd say to a student who asked me these questions.
I suppose the simplest answer is that if you are considering Gollihur's imports then Upton is not for you.
I would also say I've used Gollihur for years, they have an impeccable reputation.

As @Sam Sherry points out (even if he wasn't trying to) Upton is trying to accomplish a bigger idea than just getting you a bass, which is admirable.

Just curious - when you buy any other consumer good (shoes, clothing, appliances, cars), do you make a point of buying American made? (And, do you check what "American made" actually means?) If yes, are you willing to pay any premium/accept any reduced quality in doing so?

 

[Ed S]

Yeah, I have always felt Upton was targeted at upper middle class and well off Union workers who buy a new American made truck every couple of years.

Well, I DO belong to a professional union, but I've never owned a truck and the VW and Subaru in the garage are both several years old!

 

[damonsmith]

My dad is a union electrician - so that part of my post is informed by experience and not an insult by any means!

Well, I DO belong to a professional union, but I've never owned a truck and the VW and Subaru in the garage are both several years old!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just curious - when you buy any other consumer good (shoes, clothing, appliances, cars), do you make a point of buying American made? (And, do you check what "American made" actually means?) If yes, are you willing to pay any premium/accept any reduced quality in doing so?

No. But there are people who do for very valid reasons, and there are other factors that are not accounted for here that do come into the equation. Things like:

- A brand that stands behind its products regarding customer support and satisfaction. Imported basses like the ones under discussion here, even the really good ones, are kind of at the mercy of their retailers in this regard. Brands like Upton and Acoustic image have the reputation of being there to help if something goes wrong, and it is in their interest to do so as the original creators of that product.
- It can be a nice feeling to purchase things that you can from a "mom and pop" kind of establishment. Partially for the reasons stated above, and partly just because it's nice to have something that is not as "mass produced" as some other offerings. I enjoy this aspect of the quite expensive Noble preamp I purchased last year.
- Buying a bass from a place where the setup is to the user's specs. Sure, you can do this with most in-person bass shops, but not usually where the setup is done by the person who put the bass together. I will never forget the first time Nnick Lloyd did a setup for me: he had me play and he walked around me and watched and listened for what I was going for. He had no qualms about setting up a flatter bridge profile to facilitate pizz ergonomics even though it would make the bass harder to bow, and worked with me in the shop to find just the right profile. That was the first time I experienced luthiery as I always imagined it should be. Upton seems to have that rep as well, and I can easily imagine the peace of mind that would give a customer, and that it might leave them feeling like it was built into the price of the bass.

These discussions tend to go around and around, but in the end it's all subjective. I pay extra for a Honda car and buy them new even though a less-regarded brand and/or used model would likely get the job done. It's peace of mind. I will likely finish my career playing a bass I bought slightly used for just a little over $6K for many years ago. Sure, I got lucky and have Nnick to thank for looking out for me, but that bass just feels right to me. I have played a few basses higher up the food chain (Hachez, Schnitzer, Kimmel) that I thought would be nice to have, but nothing to make me seriously consider the price given my modest financial circumstances. I'm betting that many Upton owners feel the same way.

And in the end, past a very basic point it's the player who makes the bass worthwhile and not the other way around. If people are happy with their Uptons like I am happy with my NS basses (including the ply, which was the most expensive new ply I've ever seen), then more power to them! All of this "paid that much, huh?" stuff is just internet banter that means little in the end. As long as the player who is looking gets a good solid bass that they can make a joyful noise with, we should be congratulating them rather than second guessing IMO.

 

[Drew Tanner]

Well, I DO belong to a professional union, but I've never owned a truck and the VW and Subaru in the garage are both several years old!

Good taste! The same makes are in my driveway. There’s a 50-50 chance your Subaru was made in Indiana. And depending on the year and make, your VW may have been made in Chattanooga. I have to admit to the allure of a domestic made instrument holds a powerful sway for me. My dad’s job as a union machinist paid for my years of childhood music lessons and my first piano and guitar, and he instilled a general appreciation for buying American when possible. As a teenager, I worked my tail off mowing enough lawns to afford a Fender American Standard Strat to play in our high school jazz band.

That said, both of my basses I purchased on the used market: a student ply comparable to a Shen SB-100 and a recently acquired 2008 Upton Hybrid Deluxe. The Upton is getting all the love these days.

I purchased the ply to get my feet wet, but as I began to grow more serious in my playing, I set my sights on an Upton or New Standard.

 

[Ed S]

Ha! My dad was a Union machinist as well! And I think my GTI is from Mexico.

These discussions tend to go around and around, but in the end it's all subjective. ...
As long as the player who is looking gets a good solid bass that they can make a joyful noise with, we should be congratulating them rather than second guessing IMO.

I agree. But I feel there is plenty of constructive room for discussing the relative costs/merits of various products. Doing so doesn't have to equate w/ dissing one make or its adherents, or blind boosterism of the other.

If you were buying a car or an appliance, there is no shortage of places you can go to see comparisons and ratings. I'm not sure why instruments should be that different.

 

[damonsmith]

Agreed. I feel like we've finally reached some clarity and honesty about Upton in the last few of these. An across the board recommendation just never felt honest to me.
I'd really recommend watching a couple episodes or clips on Youtube of Pawn Stars before buying a bass in America! It is business, it is capitalism, these shops are not your friend (yet, at least).
A new bass is rarely going to to be the best bass for your money, not a even a Shen.

Also, a criticism is not a death sentence. If asked over a beer about a random opinion about a musician, there are plenty than I might have some criticisms, but, if asked to play with them, I'd be happy to. Of course there are just as many I love to see stopped by any means!

As our wise Mod @Chris Fitzgerald points out, you may want more than a bass, and these extras might be worth investing in for you. However, I'd say probably not on your first lower end bass.

My bass, a 90 year old Romanian flat back shop bass, (without considering Reggie Workman's initials carved into it) would probably retail for 4 to 6k, maybe more or less depending on where in the country and how fast or slow it needed to be sold.
A new fully carved instrument with its tonal qualities and response is going to be 10K or higher. With a bit of patience and research you can be playing a "forever bass" for the cost of a decent new hybrid.

I agree. But I feel there is plenty of constructive room for discussing the relative costs/merits of various products. Doing so doesn't have to equate w/ dissing one make or its adherents, or blind boosterism of the other.

If you were buying a car or an appliance, there is no shortage of places you can go to see comparisons and ratings. I'm not sure why instruments should be that different.

 

[Ed S]

One thing that MIGHT be of considerable value to a prospective buyer, tho, is the maker's willingness to stand behind the bass.

You often recommend buying older German shop basses from private parties. I'm not sure how much the same is true for basses, but a bunch of mediocre (and worse) fiddles were made and sold in the past. And a lot of the decent ones had questionable work done on them over the years. Older certainly does not mean better.

You'll get some protection by buying from an established shop - but of course you'll pay a premium for that.

And some makers/sellers offer trade-in allowances.

My guess is that a great many bassists lack the ability to really differentiate between a diamond in the rough, and something that is just rough. Or something that had cosmetic work done for resale, but will not hold up over time.

I would never disparage that sorta shopper spending a premium to buy from a maker/seller whom he/she believes will stand behind the bass.

 

[damonsmith]

You often recommend buying older German shop basses from private parties. I'm not sure how much the same is true for basses, but a bunch of mediocre (and worse) fiddles were made and sold in the past. And a lot of the decent ones had questionable work done on them over the years. Older certainly does not mean better.

You can get hit with an instrument with issues, still this is what most of the jazz and new music pros that I know did and do and it was the conventional wisdom before there were affordable new hybrids. Even if you get hit with some repairs, you are still going to end up with a great instrument. Fear isn't a good reason to "settle".
In general that advice works out, while there is a chance it doesn't when it does you get a great instrument.
With the new instruments in that range you are going to get something very solid and predicable.
If I am looking at rolling the dice on possibly great or sinking a grand or more into pure ideology.. well, you know what I would do!

 

[damonsmith]

I got my bass around '93 or '94 it was under 3k, 2700 or 2900, I can't remember. It has had two major repairs, a handful of basic repairs, I am well under 5k over 26 years or so, so that is decent average. 8k over that many years for a nice old bass that is loud with a full, rich sound isn't much.
Until 2010, I took it on public transit for most gigs, I flew with it several times, even overseas.

 

[james condino]

Am I the only person who is acutely aware that this conversation comes up almost every week, yet the same single ranting person who always has a beef with Upton and tells everyone they suck and that you are a loser if you play a ply bass gets to dominate the conversation while rational objective opinions are constantly berated????????

It sounds like a QAnon bass episode.....

 

[AGCurry]

Am I the only person who is acutely aware that this conversation comes up almost every week, yet the same single ranting person who always has a beef with Upton and tells everyone they suck and that you are a loser if you play a ply bass gets to dominate the conversation while rational objective opinions are constantly berated????????

It sounds like a QAnon bass episode.....

The conversation has been pretty respectful so far, methinks. I've not seen ranting until now ...

 

[damonsmith]

I'll go ahead and respond:
1. I've never, ever insulted a bass anyone owns. Ever. I don't recall ever telling anyone they suck on here, either. Do I think it is irresponsible to recommend a ply across the board in 2021 to beginner? Yes I do.
2. The Upton cheerleader chorus is every bit as loud as me in any of these conversations and I am always outnumbered. My beef is with recommending them across the board as a good deal.

3. My opinions were formed while evaluating them as a possible shop I would use when I lived near by. I had higher hopes based on the cheerleaders here, and found it not for me.
It is valid, lived experience by a professional musician. Not a beef with them. It is a specialized product with a TON of hype behind (at least on TB.)

Also, my opinion is not that they make garbage, they made solid enough products but that a significant portion of your money is going to things beyond the quality of the instrument - which the Upton fans freely admit!

Am I the only person who is acutely aware that this conversation comes up almost every week, yet the same single ranting person who always has a beef with Upton and tells everyone they suck and that you are a loser if you play a ply bass gets to dominate the conversation while rational objective opinions are constantly berated????????

It sounds like a QAnon bass episode.....

 

[eerbrev]

I think there's another, bigger, #off-topic conversation to be had about things like "Buy (insert your country here)", "Buy Local", and so on that has to do with the quality of jobs you're supporting, the kind of environmental practices you're supporting, the amount of shipping necessary to get the product to you etc.

It doesn't help to buy food from your local mom-and-pop restaurant if they treat their workers like garbage, for example. And buying inexpensive clothing is all well and good if it's the only kind you can afford, but asking questions about how they're able to sell a product (quality aside) for that price is also important.

Basses are no different.

It's a question of ethics, what you know, and what is important to you as a person. There are no good answers, it's just a question of what intersections of those qualities are important to you.

 

[neddyrow]

 

[Don Kasper]

t is business, it is capitalism, these shops are not your friend

...said the guy selling his CD's and Downloads here.
Wow...the lack of self-awareness is stunning, (but hardly surprising.)
(I guess the Mods will rap my knuckles for this...they've been kind of bored, lately, as I understand it!)
IMFO, of course as always.

 

[Eli Brockway]

In unrelated news, I'm having a sale on torches and pitchforks - and I might just have a scythe hiding somewhere back in the shop for an interested buyer, but my axes are off-limits.

 

[GretschWretch]

I think there's another, bigger, #off-topic conversation to be had about things like "Buy (insert your country here)", "Buy Local", and so on that has to do with the quality of jobs you're supporting, the kind of environmental practices you're supporting, the amount of shipping necessary to get the product to you etc.

It doesn't help to buy food from your local mom-and-pop restaurant if they treat their workers like garbage, for example. And buying inexpensive clothing is all well and good if it's the only kind you can afford, but asking questions about how they're able to sell a product (quality aside) for that price is also important.

Basses are no different.

It's a question of ethics, what you know, and what is important to you as a person. There are no good answers, it's just a question of what intersections of those qualities are important to you.

Since I nearly always buy used, i nearly always buy American.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

I agree with a lot of the things Damon is saying. You get more for your buck used. Full stop. That said, if you don’t live in a big city how many basses are really coming on the used market in a reasonable drive? I don’t see as many used basses in Colorado compared to when I lived in NYC. There were always some Craigslist DEALS to be had!

That being said, I understand why bassists buy new stuff from shops. I myself recently got a Shen from Bob Ross in Denver. I probably could have gotten a comparable bass for cheaper, or an step-up for what I had for only a little more on the used market. So why didn’t I? I like Bob and his work a lot. When I brought him a bass with a separating built-up heel (another Shen from Upton) he did the work for a good price and even offered me an interest free payment plan because I was broke.

He treated me well when I was a penniless dude off the street with a cheapish structurally iffy bass I didn’t buy from him. He did some minor setup tweaks (that I’m not sure he even charged me for) that really brought the bass alive and leveled it up. He’s been great to students I’ve sent his way. Now that it was time for a new bass, I could have deal hunted. Or I could have gone to a person who I’ve known for years, always treated me and my students well, does great work, and had what I wanted in stock? This year has been hard for a lot of folks and I wanted to support my guy. He’s doing fine, but I wanted to make sure my bass money ended up in his pocket. That was worth the extra few hundred bucks to me, and I still don’t have many spare bucks.

The Shen was made in China, but I was definitely thinking local with the purchase.