Well, whatever that sound on "We Get Requests" is, it happens to be one of the finest ever recorded imo.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass Good old Gut sound
- Thread starter sadowskyschmaus
- Start date
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Absolutely. I've played basses with old Spiros that still sounded guttish. If the bass is darker sounding, strings are old, up off the fingerboard...etc.
Plain gut lower strings have indeed been rarely used in many years. When I speak of gut lower strings, I refer to the roundwound metal wrapped guts. I assume this is what a player like Paul Chambers used.
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
Bobby King said:
Yes, I agree on the old sound darker Basses with steel.. I used only Gut at first in HS as that's what all the Basses had on them. The E and A wound gut ofcourse as you mentioned.
How do Labella Strings rank in the Gut world these days. I heard that they are no longer making them in house and are importing them in from Europe.
Gentlemen-
I just put on WGR. Check this out: Cue up "Have You Met Miss Jones?" and listen to Ray's part in the 2nd bar over the Amin7 D7 chords where he does his patented open A string with the G string G harmonic going to the D string and high F# note; listen to the high F#....my ear is saying gut. I hear the....hmmm....."thinness" or "lack of point" or "flatness" that I know from playing guts for 5 years.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but I'm really trying to analyze this record through transcription and aural study.
I just put on WGR. Check this out: Cue up "Have You Met Miss Jones?" and listen to Ray's part in the 2nd bar over the Amin7 D7 chords where he does his patented open A string with the G string G harmonic going to the D string and high F# note; listen to the high F#....my ear is saying gut. I hear the....hmmm....."thinness" or "lack of point" or "flatness" that I know from playing guts for 5 years.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but I'm really trying to analyze this record through transcription and aural study.
musicman5string said:
Man, you're fast! I can hardly shut off the browser and go back to catching up on my email without something coming in. Glad I don't have to compete with you hustling for gigs.
I think we can both agree it's one of the finest bass sounds ever recorded, and I'd also add that I agree with you that it's not like his later metal sound, and really much closer to his gut sound at the time. Probably he was still using basically the same setup and technique as with gut, and also I don't think those are Spirocores, maybe something else. Not to mention he was still hearing the sound the same way at that point, I would imagine.
Anyway, it's not to say it's totally clear. You know, we don't know for sure he didn't change his mind and try different things throughout 1964, as Ken points out. I have a strong opinion about the sound, but that doesn't make it right. Anyway, I wasn't trying to start a fight, just to point to some information I thought might clear things up. As you say, it's a great sound whatever it is, Ray Brown through and through.
Brent
KSB - Ken Smith said:
IMO, the LaBellas are no better or worse than Lemur's "European Gut" which these days is a brand called Efrano. The Labella E&A are very thick in diameter which I don't like, and as I mentioned before, the E's tend to have very poor pitch definition and sustain. The D is usually lacking in tension and becomes pretty thuddy above say a Bb. By contrast, the Varnished Lyon gut D in light gauge from Gamut has good tension and tone up into thumb position. Now mind you, my best bass is only a Czech hybrid so some of those guts may perform better on a better instrument.
I currently have some "new old stock" E&A guts that I got on Ebay from a guy in the UK. The brand is called "Fisoma" and He got them from a shop in Germany that was closing. (I put up a post recommending them a while back because he was selling more) They are also excellent strings.
Here's a link to that listing, I think it's still up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16222&item=250011892905
This person had more of these so you might contact him and ask if he's got more to sell. These are an example of what a good gut lower string is like. I've never tried the Gamuts but I'm sure they're very good as well.
As an eBay Associate, TalkBass may earn a commission from qualifying purchases.
Ken once you try some good gut strings on an old bass you will most likely find it very different from when you may have played guts in your early days. I personally didn't play play bass when I was younger so never went through the change from gut to metal. But learning from a symphony player in the early 80s I was always annoyed by the fact that metal strings seemed to come in 2 types - dull ones which could be easily bowed but had a dead thud for pizz or the bright stiff Thomastik type which had endless sustain and not so much fundamental. I have tried most strings over the years and the only metal non gut strings which don't sound over damped or over bright but flexible and open is a mixed used set of Lycons which I currently have on my old (possibly English by John Furber) bass.
These are the only ones that come close to gut tone on that bass. It makes me wonder though about what was lost when players switched to metal in the 50s and 60s. I understand they gained easier playability and more stable tuning but surely they someone must have thought - what the hell happened to the tone?!!
To answer your question - the best sound I think I have got on this bass (which may be somewhere in the ball park of your beautiful old basses) has been with gut strings and I am most likely going to put some similar ones on again sometime soon. To be specific just putting on a Chorda G string and palying it long enough to let it stretch and settle will give you an idea. I actuall found that the Pirastro pizz set of round wound gut had just the right tension and very free and open. The winding is kind of like classical guitar strings. Much freer than flat wounds like Olive etc. But I have had 2 sets and on each the D and G only last a few days and then the winding seems to go haywire and they become all chocked up and virtually unplayable. nevertheless the E and A work very well in combination with plain gut D and G. I found they bow quite well with a light touch and the whole instrument plays better with the relaxed tension of gut. The Chorda D is too heavy so it takes abit of mixing and matching. These are Baroque strings so with practice they can certainly be bowed. Everone did it until the 50s after all!
Nothing equals the tone of gut but it takes a bit more work to make it work for you. Weren't they the original hybrid string?
These are the only ones that come close to gut tone on that bass. It makes me wonder though about what was lost when players switched to metal in the 50s and 60s. I understand they gained easier playability and more stable tuning but surely they someone must have thought - what the hell happened to the tone?!!
To answer your question - the best sound I think I have got on this bass (which may be somewhere in the ball park of your beautiful old basses) has been with gut strings and I am most likely going to put some similar ones on again sometime soon. To be specific just putting on a Chorda G string and palying it long enough to let it stretch and settle will give you an idea. I actuall found that the Pirastro pizz set of round wound gut had just the right tension and very free and open. The winding is kind of like classical guitar strings. Much freer than flat wounds like Olive etc. But I have had 2 sets and on each the D and G only last a few days and then the winding seems to go haywire and they become all chocked up and virtually unplayable. nevertheless the E and A work very well in combination with plain gut D and G. I found they bow quite well with a light touch and the whole instrument plays better with the relaxed tension of gut. The Chorda D is too heavy so it takes abit of mixing and matching. These are Baroque strings so with practice they can certainly be bowed. Everone did it until the 50s after all!
Nothing equals the tone of gut but it takes a bit more work to make it work for you. Weren't they the original hybrid string?
I'll share my experience with guts with you guys.
10 years ago I had tried Spirocores and Weichs, but was obsessed with Scott LaFaro's tone on the Vanguard recordings and Ron Carter's tone on the 60's Miles records. IIRC, after much listening and analyzing these two great tones back to back, I decided they were pretty similar: Gut string G and D, steel E and A, plus medium low to low action. Good sustain, clarity, and bounce, plus wood.
Sounds pretty good, no? So I got a some of Damien Duluglecki's guts for the G and D and stayed with Spiro's for the G and D.
I'll tell you: that set up sounded good...real good. But, you just couldn't bow them without wanting to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge.
Now, I compared that bass to Todd Coolman's and Rufus Reid's back to back, and imo, mine was better: louder, clearer, warmer, and easier to play.
Problem was: I couldn't play anywhere near those guys, or the bassists on record I was trying to emulate. What I began to realize was: your setup doesn't matter, but your playing sure does.
2 cents.
10 years ago I had tried Spirocores and Weichs, but was obsessed with Scott LaFaro's tone on the Vanguard recordings and Ron Carter's tone on the 60's Miles records. IIRC, after much listening and analyzing these two great tones back to back, I decided they were pretty similar: Gut string G and D, steel E and A, plus medium low to low action. Good sustain, clarity, and bounce, plus wood.
Sounds pretty good, no? So I got a some of Damien Duluglecki's guts for the G and D and stayed with Spiro's for the G and D.
I'll tell you: that set up sounded good...real good. But, you just couldn't bow them without wanting to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge.
Now, I compared that bass to Todd Coolman's and Rufus Reid's back to back, and imo, mine was better: louder, clearer, warmer, and easier to play.
Problem was: I couldn't play anywhere near those guys, or the bassists on record I was trying to emulate. What I began to realize was: your setup doesn't matter, but your playing sure does.
2 cents.
I'm new to this site and I'm so pleased to hear you guys talking about Ray Brown . I started with the upright a few years ago after a break of over 30 years and I'm having lots of trouble with the amplified sound . My bass came with a Wilson pickup which was fine with me as I heard a friend playing with one and he sounde great but I love Ray Browns sound , especially on those '90s recordings with Jeff Hamilton and Benny Green . The Wilson pickup gave me way too much "growl" so I thought about gut strings but the price ( I live in Norway , the most expensive country in the world ! ) put me off . Currently I have LaBella Blacks on the bass because they're susposed to be closer to gut but they also produce that growl . So I bought a Fishman " Platium" preamp with EQ etc..
I play mostly traditional music , Blues , Swing , Country , and nothing works . I've been told that I should change the pickup, maybe a David Gage Realist. Ken Smith seems to know a lot about this stuff , any advice will be really appreciated . Thanks P.S. : We're having the warmest spring in 140 years here .
I play mostly traditional music , Blues , Swing , Country , and nothing works . I've been told that I should change the pickup, maybe a David Gage Realist. Ken Smith seems to know a lot about this stuff , any advice will be really appreciated . Thanks P.S. : We're having the warmest spring in 140 years here .
I was lucky enough to hear Ray many times from 1977 up until his death in 2002. The three pickups I heard him use were an original Polytone, an Underwood (which he used on some of his Concord records "Don't Forget the Blues" for one) and in the last years a new Polytone PU which was a two piece unit with a round disc that was mounted on the top near the treble f hole.
To get into Ray's approach you HAVE to learn as many of his lines and solos as possible. That in turn will add Ray's unique vocabulary and sound to yours more than a pick-up change will.
To get into Ray's approach you HAVE to learn as many of his lines and solos as possible. That in turn will add Ray's unique vocabulary and sound to yours more than a pick-up change will.
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
The sound is not just the strings. It is the Bass, strings, pickup, amp, the set-up of the bass, the settings of the amp and most important, how you actually play.
The RB sound of the 90s is not at all gut. Ray is using Spirocores in all the pictures I have seen of him from that period. His attack is his sound. I could tell when Ray is playing from the 50s to the 90s. He has different sounds with different basses but it's always Ray!
Labella blacks are not at all real gut like tone. This will take some time to get your sound so be patient. Currently for a gut tone I am using Oliv G/D and Eudoxa A/E with the strings higher than I use with steel Flexocors, my usual string from both Jazz and Orchestra. My pickup is a Shadow underwood copy and currently use an EBS 15 drome. Treble/horn off and eq as needed. I want to sound like a 'bass' when I play live and not a twangy banjo. It's just me maybe..lol
The RB sound of the 90s is not at all gut. Ray is using Spirocores in all the pictures I have seen of him from that period. His attack is his sound. I could tell when Ray is playing from the 50s to the 90s. He has different sounds with different basses but it's always Ray!
Labella blacks are not at all real gut like tone. This will take some time to get your sound so be patient. Currently for a gut tone I am using Oliv G/D and Eudoxa A/E with the strings higher than I use with steel Flexocors, my usual string from both Jazz and Orchestra. My pickup is a Shadow underwood copy and currently use an EBS 15 drome. Treble/horn off and eq as needed. I want to sound like a 'bass' when I play live and not a twangy banjo. It's just me maybe..lol
That was fast ! Thank you both for the advice.
The bass sounds fine by it's self but live is another thing . I haven't played much in the States for 10 years now but over here the "sound" techs are all bass drum nuts . The put it in channel one and mark it with a dollar sign ! Very hard to get above that and talking doesn't help anymore . I see the sound guys roll their eyes when I show up.
I've been listening to Ray Brown since I started to play in 1961 ; he's the one to emulate . I'll save up for a set of Spirocores and start there , Thanks again .
The bass sounds fine by it's self but live is another thing . I haven't played much in the States for 10 years now but over here the "sound" techs are all bass drum nuts . The put it in channel one and mark it with a dollar sign ! Very hard to get above that and talking doesn't help anymore . I see the sound guys roll their eyes when I show up.
I've been listening to Ray Brown since I started to play in 1961 ; he's the one to emulate . I'll save up for a set of Spirocores and start there , Thanks again .
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
Troiani, have you tried raising the action at the bridge?
This will usually clean up the note and remove unwanted growling.
This will usually clean up the note and remove unwanted growling.
Thanks , Jake , I raised them until I could slide my index finger smoothly between the strings and the end of the finger board ; I read that in an old Ray Brown interview. I guess my real problem is what happens when I amplify the bass . I use my 400 watt Walter Wood with my own speakers and whatever shows up when I travel and that usually works fine with my '64 P bass but the acoustic is another matter . I've stopped bringing it to gigs . It sounds lovely for recording if I don't use the pickup and if the studio has some good mikes.
Most of the bands I play with can play soft enough if I give them the "fish eye" but the large concerts with the irrepressible soundmen are impossible.
Most of the bands I play with can play soft enough if I give them the "fish eye" but the large concerts with the irrepressible soundmen are impossible.
My advice for amplifying when you are using gut:
Use an Underwood pickup but only use one of the elements. You can experiment with using the bass or treble side but just remove the other from the wing slot and let it dangle.
This is a tried and true method I learned from Nashville bassists like Roy Huskey and Billy Linneman who were/are gut players. The sound is a little "thumpy", it scoops out some mids and is not "growly", but it captures the punchiness of gut, you can plug direct into an amp without a preamp, and it can be turned up without feedback. I've used both the Full Circle and the Realist as well, but in the end I come back to the Underwood. Underwoods are fairly inexpensive, so it's worth a try.
Use an Underwood pickup but only use one of the elements. You can experiment with using the bass or treble side but just remove the other from the wing slot and let it dangle.
This is a tried and true method I learned from Nashville bassists like Roy Huskey and Billy Linneman who were/are gut players. The sound is a little "thumpy", it scoops out some mids and is not "growly", but it captures the punchiness of gut, you can plug direct into an amp without a preamp, and it can be turned up without feedback. I've used both the Full Circle and the Realist as well, but in the end I come back to the Underwood. Underwoods are fairly inexpensive, so it's worth a try.
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
"remove the other from the wing slot and let it dangle"
That's a cool trick Bobby- I'll have to give it a try.
Troiani, have you tried Fitzgerald's "Beta 57 between the feet of the bridge" trick? It really captures the thump and the woody sound of the top. I tried it with some condensers too, but didn't like the sound nearly as much.
I think the 57's proximity effect helps in this application.
Search for the whole thread under 'mics & pickups' or I can email you a photo.
That's a cool trick Bobby- I'll have to give it a try.
Troiani, have you tried Fitzgerald's "Beta 57 between the feet of the bridge" trick? It really captures the thump and the woody sound of the top. I tried it with some condensers too, but didn't like the sound nearly as much.
I think the 57's proximity effect helps in this application.
Search for the whole thread under 'mics & pickups' or I can email you a photo.
As far as mics are concerned, gut and steel string bass should be handled differently. If you're looking for the old gut sound, then dynamic or ribbon mics are best (IMO). I have an EV RE20 which I like on gut upright, also the Sennheiser 421 works well, both are dynamics. The holy grail are things like RCA 44 and 77 ribbon mics but they are hard to find and very expensive. There are some newer ribbons from companies like Royer and Beyer that I've heard good things about but I haven't tried them yet.
For steel upright, when you're looking or more brightness, growl and sustain, condenser mics are more appropriate. There are many excellent condensers and some of the new Chinese ones like MXL and Rode are very affordable, too.
For gut you can often place the mic about a foot from the bridge, not directly in front of the f hole to avoid boom. For steel you can experiment with placement, and in both cases you can use more than one mic -- people will often put one higher near the fingerboard to capture the sound from that vantage point too. Or a mic and a DI line, but always check for phase cancellation when using multiple sources. It's amazing how much sound you lose on bass when sources are out of phase.
For steel upright, when you're looking or more brightness, growl and sustain, condenser mics are more appropriate. There are many excellent condensers and some of the new Chinese ones like MXL and Rode are very affordable, too.
For gut you can often place the mic about a foot from the bridge, not directly in front of the f hole to avoid boom. For steel you can experiment with placement, and in both cases you can use more than one mic -- people will often put one higher near the fingerboard to capture the sound from that vantage point too. Or a mic and a DI line, but always check for phase cancellation when using multiple sources. It's amazing how much sound you lose on bass when sources are out of phase.
I love this site ! A million years of combined experience and you guys give it out , Thanks !
I'm gonna borrow an Underwood and try the Roy Huskey way and I own regular Shure 57 so I'll try that too.
Great !
I'm gonna borrow an Underwood and try the Roy Huskey way and I own regular Shure 57 so I'll try that too.
Great !
I played for years with one element of the Underwood. I discovered it's benefit in the middle of a concert with the great Sam Rivers. I was using the pickup's two elements as usual, when in the middle of a tune, my bass all of a sudden sounded huge and amazing. I had no idea what was going on until I looked down and saw the G side element hanging loose. It had come out on its own. I never put it back in!
I finally replaced the Underwood with the single element Schertler Stat-B which I think has a bit more "refined" sound.
I finally replaced the Underwood with the single element Schertler Stat-B which I think has a bit more "refined" sound.
