Double Bass Good old Gut sound

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Eh...I guess they could be steel but if they are, they sound alot different to me then any of Ray's recordings from the 1980's on.

What do you win? Hmm.....well, I don't own a million dollar bass company, so giving you a discount on a bass is out.....how about a cup of coffee from a store of your choosing?

As Ray got older, his strings got lower. I think he pulled the strings slightly differently as his 'gut' pushed the Bass a few inches further away as well... I know exactly how he felt about that! One day an old friend was visiting me and I was playing one of the Basses for him when he said, "Hey Ken, didn't you used to get alot closer to the Bass?"... OUCH,....

Anyway, the ring and harmonice and clarity to me are steel all the way. On his older Gut (strings I'm talkin now..lol) sound, the E strings was often softer than the G and D.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Ken-
I have the CD now, but for years I had the album. Either way, I'm still saying gut strings. I'm curious to know why you think those are steels? If you really listen to any of the notes on the G or D strings it's obvious to me that they're gut; they just sound....I dunno, "wider", "less pointy", "warmer", and, well...not steel.
Perhaps you haven't heard the album in a while. Recently I was going over my transcriptions from it. Great, melodic, beautiful lines from Ray, as usual.
Anyway, not to get into an arguement over it; a great album no matter what.
If you want to cut me that discount on a Black Tiger 5 string fretless in exhibition grade claro walnut, that would be sweet.

Ok ok.. I think it may be Gut. I had to turn the Volume in the car WAY Way way waaay up to hear the Sheep Squealing as he pulled their guts out. What? what? waaahhtt was that about a discount os something?? Huh?

I can barely hear myself think....1964, Ray Brown using Gut?.. Ok...

 

[Adrian Cho]

On The Pizzacatos, they do 'not' Bow well from what I have heard but are they a good Jazz string in your opinion? I have heard a good review about them. And for the Bow/Pizz combo you seem to like the Oliv/Eudoxa combo as I suspected would work. Do you prefer the Gut/Permanent combo over the Pirastro flatwound Gut combo? If so, what are or were you looking for that made you settle on that combo?.. Also, (am I booring anyone yet?.. sry.. really need to know..) do you think the Pirastro Bows the best of the two combos?

I didn't like the Pizzicatos too much. I can't remember exactly why but I am quite sure it was to do with the windings which if I remember correctly, are not completely flat. I hate any kind of rounded or even remotely round winding which is why I gave up on the Animas.

The Gamut Lyon/Permanent combo is very different to the Oliv/Eudoxa combo for one obvious reason and that is the use of unwound (Gamut Lyon in this case) guts on top as opposed to wound guts like the Olivs. Basically you're getting even more of an old school gut sound than the Olivs give and of course with that are the pros and cons. The bowed sound for example is pretty harsh (think PC) although I'm sure an arco player of your caliber would do well with them (and you might even have fun with the challenge of it).

Unwound gut is THE gut. For pizz think Mingus or PC. Olivs get you part of the way there but it's not the full deal.

For the best gut bowing, any combination of the Olivs and Eudoxas will be the best. Probably all Eudoxas is the tops.

 

[musicman5string]

Ok ok.. I think it may be Gut. I had to turn the Volume in the car WAY Way way waaay up to hear the Sheep Squealing as he pulled their guts out. What? what? waaahhtt was that about a discount os something?? Huh?

I can barely hear myself think....1964, Ray Brown using Gut?.. Ok...

Ken-
If you PM me I'll give you my details for contact regarding my discount...I'm thinking since that record was 42 years ago, I should get 42% off.
BTW, that was a 5 string black tiger fretless in exhibition grade claro walnut.
Thanks Ken; I knew you were a man of your word!

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Ken-
If you PM me I'll give you my details for contact regarding my discount...I'm thinking since that record was 42 years ago, I should get 42% off.
BTW, that was a 5 string black tiger fretless in exhibition grade claro walnut.
Thanks Ken; I knew you were a man of your word!

Yes, on christmas I will be raising the prices 60% and then be giving 42% off as a special sale... Just call me for the deposit details..lol

But, if and when you need something, my liabality will not be greater than the cost of the CD! Please call me seriously if you need something. RB sounds amazing on that CD with Guts. Better Gut sound than PC or Lafaro to my ear.

 

[Bobby King]

Ray got such a fat sound no matter what he played. I love the Oscar Peterson record with Clark Terry and also "Night Train" and Ray's using steel on both, I think. It sounds great. With the right bass and bassist, steel can sometimes sound as fat and punchy as gut.

Ken Smith, a few opinions on the various gut options:

The Pirastro Pizzicatos are a great jazz string. All four strings have a semi-flatwound metal winding. They have the punch of gut but are also one of the most lively and sustaining gut core strings made. Terrible for arco though. A real hollow and funny tone with the bow and poor response. The best gut core for arco is Oliv. They sound beautiful but it's a slower response than steel. Nice for lyrical things but not rapid orchestral passages. Eudoxa is similar but brighter and thinner. The Oliv E&A are just thud for pizz though, Eudoxa's E&A is better. The Eudoxa E&A and Oliv G&D are a common mixed set. Oliv and Eudoxa produce a dark gut sound, but it's a less lively, more "contained" pizz tone and they have greater tension than plain gut. For me that's not a plus. I like the flexiblity and snappy feel of traditional gut, and the lively, punchy tone.

Many people use different lower strings -- steel, synthetic -- mixed with plain gut uppers. I've never really liked the difference in tension and timbre that inevitably results, and the timbre differences become more pronounced when ampilied. Something like Oliv blends better with steel or synthetic lowers. For a while I used Oliv and Obligato and that was a nice set-up for both pizz and arco use. You can mix plain gut with Pizzicato or Eudoxa and get a better match-up, but I still prefer the standard roundwound E&A, IF you get good ones. Big If.

As for plain gut and roundwound E&A gut core: Except for Gamut and Dlugolecki, they don't make them like they used to. I've had "new old stock" from Sweettone, Roth, Fisoma (none of which are made anymore) and others and they are way superior to the current regular brands like Labella, Efrano, Gotz and Lenzner. With all of those brands I experience the same thing: G is OK, D is floppy and the pitch gets progressively worse as you go up the neck, A is OK, E is horrible, no tone, no sustain, thud. Also, the gauges are all different in peculiar ways, rather unpredictable, and this makes for set-up headaches as far as action is concerned.

Gamut and Dlugoleckis strings are the only thing that is on par with those old stock strings that I've experienced. ( but be prepared to pay around $400 for a full set) So, if you want a traditional gut set, I'd recommend Gamuts in a light or medium light gauge. Or get plain Gamut G&D and experiment with different lower strings. If you don't need to do any arco, try those Pizzicatos, they're quite nice.

All of the above is IMO, and we all know what opinions are like!

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I didn't like the Pizzicatos too much. I can't remember exactly why but I am quite sure it was to do with the windings which if I remember correctly, are not completely flat. I hate any kind of rounded or even remotely round winding which is why I gave up on the Animas.

The Gamut Lyon/Permanent combo is very different to the Oliv/Eudoxa combo for one obvious reason and that is the use of unwound (Gamut Lyon in this case) guts on top as opposed to wound guts like the Olivs. Basically you're getting even more of an old school gut sound than the Olivs give and of course with that are the pros and cons. The bowed sound for example is pretty harsh (think PC) although I'm sure an arco player of your caliber would do well with them (and you might even have fun with the challenge of it).

Unwound gut is THE gut. For pizz think Mingus or PC. Olivs get you part of the way there but it's not the full deal.

For the best gut bowing, any combination of the Olivs and Eudoxas will be the best. Probably all Eudoxas is the tops.

Well, my Qs were really two fold. For Orchestra I usually need my Bass with the Low C Ext. so Guts are out for that. I used the Olivs once b4 and the G and D were about the best I have touched. If the Eudoxas on the Bottom are as good (as the Olivs were too thuddy), then I will have just a thicker 'gut-like' sound. Then, maybe I will string up my Loveri with all Gut/gut wound, old school for that RB/PC thing when I need it. Still, I can bow them ( I used mostly Guts in High School) and practice at home as the Loveri is my practice Bass as well. The Pizzacatos would be ONLY for Jazz if I get then.

My goal now is to test these sets/combos listed above as I did with the range or Pirastros orchestral Strings a year or so ago and make my new list of 'old school' choices soundwise from all Jazz to all Bowing and inbetween.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

To Bobby King, thanks for your post. Most imformative to say the least. I have a potential customer that uses the Dlugoleckis and may be sending me a set or used set to test for him as he is looking to buy a Bass and string it with those. He wants a big sound and plays without an amp. I called Labella today and let them know I need a set to test. We go way way back so I am not worried about costs. Being in the business, I get some 'respect' and pay wholesale at worst.

I can play one Bass with one string but that gets old sometimes. If I do a Trio gig and get into a RB mood I wanna sound like RB. In the Orchestra I wanna sound like I should there as well. On one Jazz Gig I was playing my former Dodd Bass with Flex Starks. I picked up the Bow to play in the intro with the Sax and the Bass was so loud and thick/fat sounding that the Singer JUMPED with a scared look on her face as soon as I played that first C on the A string. I guess she never heard the Bass section of the London Symphony up close as this Bass was fresh in from London and it was actually ex-London Symphony, ex-Royal Philarmonic and ex-BBC Orchestras. The biggest fattest sounding Bass I have ever played, period. Scared me the first time I played it BUT, it just wasn't me so I sold it within less than a year.

When I play in the Orchestra now I love my Gilkes. For solos I love my Bisiach (labelled) and for Jazz I love the Loveri.. I can do all 3 with any of the Basses but some basses and some strings OR some Basses with a particular string just does Some things a little better.. If you know what I mean..

For me at my stage of the game it's ALL about enjoyment. I just gotta have fun no matter what the gig or what the Bass. Round peg in a round hole kinda thing..

Thx guys.. Keep em coming.. I love this stuff.. OOPS.. Late here.. gotta get home. Rehearsal ended at 10pm..

 

[Bobby King]

My goal now is to test these sets/combos listed above as I did with the range or Pirastros orchestral Strings a year or so ago and make my new list of 'old school' choices soundwise from all Jazz to all Bowing and inbetween.

That's some expensive research!

Hey, if you need anyplace to dispose of your laboratory waste, please give me a call!

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

That's some expensive research!

Hey, if you need anyplace to dispose of your laboratory waste, please give me a call!

Well, maybe you have a set of some nice used guts around I could try as well.. I think I have a few sets retired here and there waiting for the needy..

 

[musicman5string]

Ray got such a fat sound no matter what he played. I love the Oscar Peterson record with Clark Terry and also "Night Train" and Ray's using steel on both, I think.

Both of those CD's are guts without a doubt. I agree with you about his fat sound though.

 

[Brent Nussey]

Both of those CD's are guts without a doubt. I agree with you about his fat sound though.

I also agree with you about the fat sound. However, to put the issue to rest, Ray uses metal strings on the Silvestre on both We Get Requests and the Clark Terry record, and Night Train is gut on the big bass. To me, the former 2 really typify his early metal sound, maybe those were the Lycons that have been talked about here, I'm not sure. But they're not gut. You don't have to believe me though:
http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/Ray Brown_1.htm

Note the date...

Brent

 

[Bobby King]

Both of those CD's are guts without a doubt. I agree with you about his fat sound though.

How are you certain about this? On some of those tunes, I hear an awful lot of growl on the low strings for them to be gut, and a certain sustain and ring that would be impressive from gut.

Those records were out around '63-'64. Steel bass strings had been available since the mid-late '50's and players like Red Mitchell and Ray were among the first to use them. There are endorsement ads for Lycon strings from the mid '60s that feature Ray as well. So when did Ray switch, then?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I also agree with you about the fat sound. However, to put the issue to rest, Ray uses metal strings on the Silvestre on both We Get Requests and the Clark Terry record, and Night Train is gut on the big bass. To me, the former 2 really typify his early metal sound, maybe those were the Lycons that have been talked about here, I'm not sure. But they're not gut. You don't have to believe me though:
http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/Ray Brown_1.htm

Note the date...

Brent

Ray used Metal on We get Requests? Can you please tell me how you know that? Also, the Bass with the external rib linings is a German Bass and not a French Bass. Too many nice German Basses have been called French by dealers trying to jack the price. There are two things I have NEVER seen on an authentic French Bass and they are external linings on the ribs (aka outer mouldings) and original installed hat peg gears. Even if it is a high shoulderd violin cornered Bass but has these things, it is a German Orchestral Bass. The Germans also made some not-so commercial Basses as well.

 

[Bobby King]

I also agree with you about the fat sound. However, to put the issue to rest, Ray uses metal strings on the Silvestre on both We Get Requests and the Clark Terry record, and Night Train is gut on the big bass. To me, the former 2 really typify his early metal sound, maybe those were the Lycons that have been talked about here, I'm not sure. But they're not gut. You don't have to believe me though:
http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/Ray Brown_1.htm

Note the date...

Brent

Most interesting, Brent.

I was just listening to the Clark Terry record and for instance on the second tune, "Jim", I'll be damned if that's not steel at least on the low strings. From that interview, it's intersting that in '63 he had a mixed set on some of his basses.

 

[musicman5string]

http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/Ray Brown_1.htm

Note the date...

Brent

Right; I'm talking about the G and D strings being gut, not the E and A, and this is infact exactly what Ray in 1963 says he uses.
So, thanks for proving me correct.

I never assumed ANY bassist in jazz used plain gut E and A strings, starting at least from Jimmy Blanton onwards. Every picture I've ever seen of Mingus from before the 70's clearly shows plain gut G and D and steel of some sort E and A.

Nice article BTW.

 

[musicman5string]

Also, I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner: The pics in Ray's book clearly show him using gut G and D and steel E and A.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Most interesting, Brent.

I was just listening to the Clark Terry record and for instance on the second tune, "Jim", I'll be damned if that's not steel at least on the low strings. From that interview, it's intersting that in '63 he had a mixed set on some of his basses.

So.. Ray has metal E and A and Gut G and D at best if not all metal strings. Gut G and D (or Golden Spiral) and Spiro A and E were a bit popular back in the 60s as I believe Ron Carter used this combo with the Golden Spiral on the G and D. We used that set on the Baby Bass as well. All the guys were doing that.

So... G and D gut with Eudoxa A and E is a possibility or like Adrian, with Perms on the bottom..Now we're gettin somewhere...For Orchestra, the smoothest I've played was Oliv G and D.. muahhh.. ..

 

[Brent Nussey]

Right; I'm talking about the G and D strings being gut, not the E and A, and this is infact exactly what Ray in 1963 says he uses.
So, thanks for proving me correct.

I never assumed ANY bassist in jazz used plain gut E and A strings, starting at least from Jimmy Blanton onwards. Every picture I've ever seen of Mingus from before the 70's clearly shows plain gut G and D and steel of some sort E and A.

Nice article BTW.

I think you've read it wrong. He says that on his French bass (or what he calls his French bass), he's using rope cored steel strings. There's no qualification there. If you read it again, I think you'll see he means all 4 steel. On his big bass, he's using 2 gut and 2 metal. The bass on We Get Requests and the Clark Terry Record is the Silvestre (French bass) It sounds very different from the big bass, and you can hear how he flies all over the middle-upper register now that he has a bass with more sloping shoulders. It's also the bass on the covers of both records, not that that really means much. The jist of what I was trying to point out was that the Clark Terry record was recorded August 17, 1964. We Get Requests, Oct 19 and 20, 1964. Murray Lauder told me he bought the big bass from Ray in fall 1964, since Ray had decided he wouldn't use it any more. I don't believe you can find a picture of Ray playing the big bass taken in 1964. By 1963, he was playing all metal on the French bass, "according to what suits the particular instrument." All evidence points to those 2 albums being made with the French bass, with all 4 metal strings. IMHO, all the aural evidence points to it too.

I wasn't trying to insinuate you weren't aware that low E and A gut strings have been wrapped in metal from as far back as jazz itself. I think maybe you just misread what's being said in the interview, and it's implications.

Brent

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I listened to that CD last night in the car, speakers blaring.. I can hear the gut type sound as his fingers come off the strings. Now, I have my Bisiach with very old/used Flex Starks on it and they sound a bit deadish. The also sustain with pizz but an older type of fundamental sound. I think that it is possible for old steel strings to sound guttish if the strings are up a bit off the FB and you dig in as well. Still, I could swear the G and D sounded like Gut on the CD. Also, on the picture, they were not recording in a club. No one was clapping! He still could have recorded with Guts and the Italian Bass as well but maybe not..

Like I first said earlier and made a bet that now I thionk I maybe have one..