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Good tone from FRFRs?

S

Schpeaker

Jun 4, 2023
70
148
#1
I hate the sound of my basses through FRFRs.

I've played through all manner of FRFRs -- headphones through a Focusrite, KZ ZS10 Pro IEMs, hi-fi speakers with subs, QSC K12s, and even line-array PAs with subs (yes, I stood in front of mains and played through my wireless just to see how I sounded in the hall... I was horrified). The sound is cold, distant, midrangey, rubbery. I've EQ'd the hell out of it, but it doesn't get rid of the character. Yeah you can hear the sub booming out a muffled mmmm mmmm and you can hear a horrid rubbery high-mid tone coming out of the mains but there is no thumpy FAT low-mid chest-punch that a bass amp gives you.

I've played different basses -- Ibanez SR, P-bass, EBMM StingRay.

I've tried different fx -- parametric EQs, bass amp plugins, a Markbass tube compressor, an Ampeg SGT-DI with cab sim on/off. I *think* I can kind of get in the ballpark of that phatness by enabling a heavy-handed cab sim and with the scrambler overdrive, but then I lose all note definition.

NOTHING beats the sound of the bass plugged straight into an amp, even a cheap-ass puny little Fender Rumble 15 that I'm sure doesn't even produce 2nd-order harmonics with enough db, let alone fundamentals, and yet it still sounds better than anything I do with an FRFR.

One time I put a mic in front of my GK amp, analyzed the waveform through an RTA in a Soundcraft mixer, and tried to reproduce that response through a QSC K12 by tweaking the EQ to match the amp's RTA. I then put the mic in front of the K12 and the waveform looked nearly identical to the GK, but it didn't sound or feel the same when I played. There's always this distant rubbery feel that I can't explain.

Any ideas? What the heck do these amps do anyway? Why is it so hard to reproduce?
 
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#2
My 'big rig' is a 1000W Wayne Jones powered 2X10. Uber clean, transparent, and LOUD; but not what I'd become used to (playing since the 70's).
A Sansamp BDDI v.2 through a DSM Deluxe Omnicabsim makes for the authentic sound of a little grit and a vintage cab through it or FOH.
1730367642285.jpeg
 
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#3
For FRFR speakers/cabs you need some kind of amp emulation and cab simulation, some dedicated bass preamps, many of those in pedal format, got both integrated.

The big advantages is not to have to drag your heavy amp with you to gigs, and that you get an approximately identical tone no matter is you practice at home with FRFR headphones, a FRFR PA speaker or cab, and playing live though a venue's PA system.
 
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#4
that's right, for this usecase you need something like DSM & Humboldt bass station pedal, or if VST is acceptable, the Neural Amp Modeler is a great platform for amp+cab sims (it's also available through the dimehead NAM player pedał)
 
#5
What I do:

- cut the low bass (a HPF set somewhere between 30 and 70Hz)
- maybe slightly emphasize the low mids (covering, like, 80-300Hz)
- heavily boost the high mids (like, 5-6dB or so)
- cut the treble beyond 4-5kHz with a LPF

For added realism, add in a few (like, three or four) random boosts and cuts between 1 and 4kHz, narrow Q (1/3rd octave).
If you can, add some slight saturation before the LPF.

There you go, a cab sim.
 
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#6
I normally run a pair of 10's and a 15 in my Subway stack, but have been forced to bypass and go straight to the board from my pedalboard. I now have an HX Stomp with IR's available, but prior to that the thing that made the difference to me was an MXR DI with EQ and a tube preamp (SushiBox Underground Accelerator) feeding it. Dial in a pinch of fuzz to thicken up the sound and it was at least reasonable out front.
 
#9
I’ve used a clone I built of the DSM Omnicabsim with a couple minor circuit tweaks to great results.. it’s all about getting familiar response curves. I’ve had a little luck with graphic EQs, but it’s something of a matter of luck for the frequencies to line up with what you might need

There are a lot of great digital cab sims these days, some of which are pretty inexpensive.. I’d probably start there.

Otherwise, I’d look for some freq response graphs of popular cabs, and start playing with the frequency centers of the bumps and dips- just remember that you’re applying the eq TO the signal, and that you can’t necessarily just copy the graph and expect it to sound normal
 
#10
I'm currently playing through a QSC K12.2 using various models in my HX Stomp XL.
I've never thought of myself as having anything like "golden ears", but it sounds pretty good to me.
I still wonder what a Mesa Boogie rig would be like though. :laugh:
 
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#11
It’s not just the cabinet voicing but also the amp’s voicing that’ part of the “bass rig sound”. Then there are many small enhancements involved in amp design to take a solid tone to the next level, that’s what you pay for in the better amps/cabinets.

That said, a FOH engineer with even basic skills and ability should be able to get a very acceptable bass sound right off the bass without any difficulty. It doesn’t take that much effort.
 
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#16
agedhorse said:
It’s not just the cabinet voicing but also the amp’s voicing that’ part of the “bass rig sound”. Then there are many small enhancements involved in amp design to take a solid tone to the next level, that’s what you pay for in the better amps/cabinets.

That said, a FOH engineer with even basic skills and ability should be able to get a very acceptable bass sound right off the bass without any difficulty. It doesn’t take that much effort.
Click to expand...

I can personally recommend using a Mesa Boogie Subway D800 (the original!!) with just the Direct Out to FOH as an "ampless" rig. I have done this many times and it has served me quite well. (Don't try this with a tube amp, please.)


Thanks @agedhorse to you and your colleages for this particular robust design. Mine has been stepped on, dropped, ignored on a shelf, and otherwise abused, and it has always been faithful. (I am not compensated for this post in any way and have no affiliation with Mesa Boogie, though I also originally come from California.)
 
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#17
Schpeaker said:
I hate the sound of my basses through FRFRs.
Click to expand...
🤣 well then, you know what not to do!

agedhorse said:
...a FOH engineer with even basic skills and ability should be able to get a very acceptable bass sound right off the bass without any difficulty. It doesn’t take that much effort.
Click to expand...
0000_1.jpg
👍

per the OP: chasing a tone/sound is different than dealing with what you're given, obviously, and it sounds like you've done both --- and that you have stronger preferences than some. cool beans, good luck! :thumbsup:
 
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#19
OP here. Thanks for all the suggestions. One thing that bears repeating is that I *AM* using a preamp + cab sim in my Ampeg SGT-DI. The preamp adds a tiny bit of warmth. The cab sim actually does fatten up the sound a fair bit and makes the tone tolerable through my IEMs. However, I lose a ton of note definition, and it still sounds "off" through the mains -- rubbery and hi-fi sounding, if that makes any sense.

But I've just been using the factory IRs in the Ampeg, so perhaps I should try downloading some other IRs.
 
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