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Double Bass Got fired for solos being too busy.
- Thread starter Dennis Kong
- Start date
To mine ears, it sounds like you're in a hurry. Would be better if you simply just took your time to phrase better like our pro's have said and create some nice melodies.
One of the exercises I get from my old guitar teacher was sorta like trading fours with yourself using BinAB or something like that:
1) You come up with an idea/phrase and play it over 4 bars.
2) Rest for 4 bars
3) Play 4 bars again, but this time, the 4 bars should relate to step #1 in some way (i.e. call & response, motif, etc etc).
Once you get that down, then length the # of bars to 8 and then change it to something odd, like 3 or 5 bars.
Works great for me.
One of the exercises I get from my old guitar teacher was sorta like trading fours with yourself using BinAB or something like that:
1) You come up with an idea/phrase and play it over 4 bars.
2) Rest for 4 bars
3) Play 4 bars again, but this time, the 4 bars should relate to step #1 in some way (i.e. call & response, motif, etc etc).
Once you get that down, then length the # of bars to 8 and then change it to something odd, like 3 or 5 bars.
Works great for me.
Hey Dennis,
I took a listen to your pieces on Damon's site, and they sound impressive - man, your technique and solos are far better than mine
but, I wonder if anyone has ever told you that often less is more ? Sometimes it's good to play the rests, and hey, they're so easy to play in tune!! I always think of that when I hear Oscar Peterson's playing - his technique is fabulous, but it's almost as if he can't bear to have any gaps - a bit like driving in Massachusetts (leave a space - and immediately someone fills it!!). Oh, and stay off the coffee
Nice job, anyway - thanks for posting the pieces! (thanks again Damon
)
- Wil
I took a listen to your pieces on Damon's site, and they sound impressive - man, your technique and solos are far better than mine
but, I wonder if anyone has ever told you that often less is more ? Sometimes it's good to play the rests, and hey, they're so easy to play in tune!! I always think of that when I hear Oscar Peterson's playing - his technique is fabulous, but it's almost as if he can't bear to have any gaps - a bit like driving in Massachusetts (leave a space - and immediately someone fills it!!). Oh, and stay off the coffee
Nice job, anyway - thanks for posting the pieces! (thanks again Damon
)- Wil
Dennis....I feel that you need to center yourself alot more. Both in terms of your time playing and more so in your solo work.
Your melodic concept is pretty good as are your chops. In your Beautiful Love solo....as someone has already said, it feels like you're jumping so far ahead that you're almost into a displacement vibe. One of two things are happening (or both )
1. You think the other players are dragging and/or playing behind the beat during your solo.
2. You're playing, at times, outta control.
I think both things are happening.
Someone else said you sound like you're in a hurry.
The good news IMO is that I think you got something there.
Just try pulling things back and even things out a bit.
Biggest danger........Don't let your ego drive you. Play from your heart. Don't try to impress people with speed and virtuosity, but with music.
Your melodic concept is pretty good as are your chops. In your Beautiful Love solo....as someone has already said, it feels like you're jumping so far ahead that you're almost into a displacement vibe. One of two things are happening (or both )
1. You think the other players are dragging and/or playing behind the beat during your solo.
2. You're playing, at times, outta control.
I think both things are happening.
Someone else said you sound like you're in a hurry.
The good news IMO is that I think you got something there.
Just try pulling things back and even things out a bit.
Biggest danger........Don't let your ego drive you. Play from your heart. Don't try to impress people with speed and virtuosity, but with music.
Paul Warburton said:
Dennnis you one lucky fellow to get that kind of feedback and kind advice from Paul!
Beautiful Love. You've got to work on your time playing. The intonation is sketchy at times. When you play out of tune and time, the whole band sounds like doo-doo. That's why you lost the gig, and thats the kind of power the bass has. When it sounds bad, nobody wants to hear it, and much worse nobody wants to hear the band! If you work on listening to the music, this can all get better with time.
Record the gigs, and go over the tapes, face to face, with people whose opinion you trust and respect.
Thanks- everyone! 
for ya feedback!
especially to Damon who posted the tunes.
And do study with 2 different teachers off & on.
Glen Richmond for DB. ( Bobby Hutchinson, Mimi Fox, Mark Levin, instructor at the Jazz School (Berkeley Ca) ,student of Buster Williams.)
Kai Eckhardht for EB ( John Mclaughlin, Ralph Towner, Billy Cobham, Steve Smith,).
At the moment I 'm studying with with Kai again, and am working on relaxing exercises to start.
And have been trying to relearn to phrase with more space.
( Dave- sax player in the band's web site (Forte) ( ex- Huey Lewis,Tower of Power, Cold Blood, Drifters, Coasters & Billy Preston) sometimes suggest that to me :as he works on that a lot too.)
The recording with Laverne was done last year in Feb.
Funny- I actually do drink lotsa of coffee too.
for ya feedback!especially to Damon who posted the tunes.
And do study with 2 different teachers off & on.
Glen Richmond for DB. ( Bobby Hutchinson, Mimi Fox, Mark Levin, instructor at the Jazz School (Berkeley Ca) ,student of Buster Williams.)
Kai Eckhardht for EB ( John Mclaughlin, Ralph Towner, Billy Cobham, Steve Smith,).
At the moment I 'm studying with with Kai again, and am working on relaxing exercises to start.
And have been trying to relearn to phrase with more space.
( Dave- sax player in the band's web site (Forte) ( ex- Huey Lewis,Tower of Power, Cold Blood, Drifters, Coasters & Billy Preston) sometimes suggest that to me :as he works on that a lot too.)
The recording with Laverne was done last year in Feb.
Funny- I actually do drink lotsa of coffee too.
So the guitarist said that your solos are too busy. Given the Beautiful Love example, I would say this: It's not that they are too busy period, but they are busier than your technique and your concept of time/feel allow you to play effectively right now. And in this example your solo is too busy in the context of this tune, the way this trio is playing. It's a nice cooled out vibe. To use Ed's conversation analogy, there's a topic being discussed, and when it's your turn to contribute to the discussion, you come flying in there with some wacky s***.
I'd venture to say that for most of us in the early to intermediate stages, our ideas are often just a wee bit ahead of our technique. So we improve our technique to catch up with our ideas, only to find that it's time for some more intersting ideas, which require still better technique, and on and on. In your case, the ideas seem to be way ahead of your technique. I'll bet you are reading this and thinking, "But I have good technique!". The fact is that you can play little blurts of things that are fast, but are not placed well rhythmically. This does not equal good technique. IME this type of situation is a result of trying to progress too quickly, taking shortcuts. I'd rather hear accurate-slow than sloppy-fast any day.
It sounds like you are trying to sound like Stanley Clarke and/or Brian Bromberg. While these are both accomplished and respected players, it wouldn't hurt to have a little more Ray Brown and/or Paul Chambers (IOW, the Tradition) informing your playing as well. (I'd mention Red Mitchell, for economical and melodic solos, but then Paul WarBuddy would come back and we'd get hopelessly derailed). Ray and PC especially for playing time - both walking and "two" feel, though they were great soloists as well.
One suggestion I would make is to really get inside continuum of the eighth note feel. Listen to players of all instruments, and how they do this. It is essential to be able to play longish runs of eighth notes in time and with a good feel, in medium to medium-up tempos. Forget about triplets, sixteenths, even syncopated eighth rhythms for a while, and just work on improving those steady streams of eighth notes. As an exercise, you could even try a whole chorus of eighth notes, with no rests, just to get a flow happening. A word of caution: don't underestimate the importance of accurate rests! Rhythmic flaws are many times the result of a rest being too long or short. So after the whole chorus of eighth notes, try longer phrases of just eighth notes, with longer rests (4-6 beats, for example). While you are in the middle of the rest, you should still be internalizing the eighth note feel as if you were playing.
HTH, and good luck!
I'd venture to say that for most of us in the early to intermediate stages, our ideas are often just a wee bit ahead of our technique. So we improve our technique to catch up with our ideas, only to find that it's time for some more intersting ideas, which require still better technique, and on and on. In your case, the ideas seem to be way ahead of your technique. I'll bet you are reading this and thinking, "But I have good technique!". The fact is that you can play little blurts of things that are fast, but are not placed well rhythmically. This does not equal good technique. IME this type of situation is a result of trying to progress too quickly, taking shortcuts. I'd rather hear accurate-slow than sloppy-fast any day.
It sounds like you are trying to sound like Stanley Clarke and/or Brian Bromberg. While these are both accomplished and respected players, it wouldn't hurt to have a little more Ray Brown and/or Paul Chambers (IOW, the Tradition) informing your playing as well. (I'd mention Red Mitchell, for economical and melodic solos, but then Paul WarBuddy would come back and we'd get hopelessly derailed
). Ray and PC especially for playing time - both walking and "two" feel, though they were great soloists as well.One suggestion I would make is to really get inside continuum of the eighth note feel. Listen to players of all instruments, and how they do this. It is essential to be able to play longish runs of eighth notes in time and with a good feel, in medium to medium-up tempos. Forget about triplets, sixteenths, even syncopated eighth rhythms for a while, and just work on improving those steady streams of eighth notes. As an exercise, you could even try a whole chorus of eighth notes, with no rests, just to get a flow happening. A word of caution: don't underestimate the importance of accurate rests! Rhythmic flaws are many times the result of a rest being too long or short. So after the whole chorus of eighth notes, try longer phrases of just eighth notes, with longer rests (4-6 beats, for example). While you are in the middle of the rest, you should still be internalizing the eighth note feel as if you were playing.
HTH, and good luck!
First of all, I want to commend you in wanting feedback on such a personal thing as one's playing on a public forum. The first thing I noticed on the first cut was the electric-y sound from the Juzek. The sound of the second on the King was much better. Seems like the 1st one was rather hurried, while the second was better produced and with more time involved. Song one just had some mistakes in it that shouldn't have left the studio - the intro rhythm was confusing as was the entrance afterward - probably not your fault but not something I'd vote for another take.
About your supporting lines - play with much more punch in the sound, more aggressively. It's an acoustic bass, make it sound like one! The lines are too repetitive and tend to wander around the same area of the instrument - open up the fingerboard and give us some range to listen to. You could also do more with the direction of your lines - more direct choices in starting with the root on the first beat of the chord change, chord notes, arpeggios, scale patterns. Read Rufus Reid's book in that area, make more logical and inventive(but simple) lines for your soloists to play over, they will listen to you better and the group will end up being more cohesive in the end.
On the solos - you're showing us plenty of chops - nice - but the solos need some rethinking. Start out with a simple statement and build on it. It sounds like you've heard a lot of Scott LaFaro. He's my favorite on this kind of thing, and while he is very melodicly and rhythmically advanced, there's still a plan there, some sort of foundation to build on. Before you dive in head first to Scottyland, start over with just some simpler ideas and more melodic content to give us a clearer idea what you want to say with your solos.
In general, I'm hearing a lot of elements of things that are coming together for you. I don't know how long you've been playing, but if it hasn't been long, you're doing well and obviously you're open for comments for improvement, and that's a wonderful thing. The one thing that needs work on both lines and solos, is getting a firm grasp on TIME. On the lines, it was just kind of fuzzy with the lines needing to be more punchy, but on the first solo(especially), it felt very rushed and displaced. I think with more of a plan there the time may fall into place a little better. One thing that helped me solidify time was to take it away from the patting foot and internalize it more. Replace the beating foot with the sensation of playing the notes on your fingertips. Put the time there where it needs to happen and learn to be an independent time-keeper. Not to stray from the drummer, but to LEAD the group with your time, they'll thank you for it.
Ike
About your supporting lines - play with much more punch in the sound, more aggressively. It's an acoustic bass, make it sound like one! The lines are too repetitive and tend to wander around the same area of the instrument - open up the fingerboard and give us some range to listen to. You could also do more with the direction of your lines - more direct choices in starting with the root on the first beat of the chord change, chord notes, arpeggios, scale patterns. Read Rufus Reid's book in that area, make more logical and inventive(but simple) lines for your soloists to play over, they will listen to you better and the group will end up being more cohesive in the end.
On the solos - you're showing us plenty of chops - nice - but the solos need some rethinking. Start out with a simple statement and build on it. It sounds like you've heard a lot of Scott LaFaro. He's my favorite on this kind of thing, and while he is very melodicly and rhythmically advanced, there's still a plan there, some sort of foundation to build on. Before you dive in head first to Scottyland, start over with just some simpler ideas and more melodic content to give us a clearer idea what you want to say with your solos.
In general, I'm hearing a lot of elements of things that are coming together for you. I don't know how long you've been playing, but if it hasn't been long, you're doing well and obviously you're open for comments for improvement, and that's a wonderful thing. The one thing that needs work on both lines and solos, is getting a firm grasp on TIME. On the lines, it was just kind of fuzzy with the lines needing to be more punchy, but on the first solo(especially), it felt very rushed and displaced. I think with more of a plan there the time may fall into place a little better. One thing that helped me solidify time was to take it away from the patting foot and internalize it more. Replace the beating foot with the sensation of playing the notes on your fingertips. Put the time there where it needs to happen and learn to be an independent time-keeper. Not to stray from the drummer, but to LEAD the group with your time, they'll thank you for it.
Ike
- Dec 13, 1999
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- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
So it's starting to sound like maybe the guitar player had a point, right?
Now here's the hard part- you've got to hit the shed and start tearing apart your approach, but you've got to hit the stand like you're already where you want to be. Not precisely, but you can't be up there second guessing yourself all the time. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN to every single note that is being played (like my teacher says; playing jazz isn't about playing, it's about listening) and make your contribution a PART of that sound. When Ike says stuff about "changing the direction of your lines", I know the first impulse is to go out looking for more vocabulary. But (to steal from Jim Stinnett) you don't want to go looking for more ammunition when what you need to be working on is improving your aim. Rather than starting with a search for more material, I would suggest trying to identify what is in your ear, your working vocabulary, and trying to use THAT to play with more meaning. That means putting specific notes in specific places in the time stream. It ain't easy and it's something we all are working on. But ya gotta start sometime, right?
who do you transcribe? I would suggest starting to sing some Pres solos (you want to talk about somebody who says a lot with very little!) in ways I've outlined in other threads. Hearing somebody like that in half time, who doesn't smear notes but PLACES them, who not only starts phrases in a variety of spots in that bar and in the harmony, but ENDS them in creative and inventive ways, who plays rests as notes, not as the absence of notes - the act of learning to sing a solo like that at half time, with all the nuances, bringing it to tempo and THEN picking up your instrument to find the notes you are singing does A LOT for learning how to hear an internal line (your own) with enough clarity to bring it out.
Have you spoken with your teacher(s) about your concerns? How specific are you? You know, not "I want to solo better", but "I want to soldify my time feel while accompanying, I want to develop a more melodic accompaniment line and I want my solos to communicate in a more meaningful way." What do they say?
Now here's the hard part- you've got to hit the shed and start tearing apart your approach, but you've got to hit the stand like you're already where you want to be. Not precisely, but you can't be up there second guessing yourself all the time. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN to every single note that is being played (like my teacher says; playing jazz isn't about playing, it's about listening) and make your contribution a PART of that sound. When Ike says stuff about "changing the direction of your lines", I know the first impulse is to go out looking for more vocabulary. But (to steal from Jim Stinnett) you don't want to go looking for more ammunition when what you need to be working on is improving your aim. Rather than starting with a search for more material, I would suggest trying to identify what is in your ear, your working vocabulary, and trying to use THAT to play with more meaning. That means putting specific notes in specific places in the time stream. It ain't easy and it's something we all are working on. But ya gotta start sometime, right?
who do you transcribe? I would suggest starting to sing some Pres solos (you want to talk about somebody who says a lot with very little!) in ways I've outlined in other threads. Hearing somebody like that in half time, who doesn't smear notes but PLACES them, who not only starts phrases in a variety of spots in that bar and in the harmony, but ENDS them in creative and inventive ways, who plays rests as notes, not as the absence of notes - the act of learning to sing a solo like that at half time, with all the nuances, bringing it to tempo and THEN picking up your instrument to find the notes you are singing does A LOT for learning how to hear an internal line (your own) with enough clarity to bring it out.
Have you spoken with your teacher(s) about your concerns? How specific are you? You know, not "I want to solo better", but "I want to soldify my time feel while accompanying, I want to develop a more melodic accompaniment line and I want my solos to communicate in a more meaningful way." What do they say?
KING KONG, I go to Glenn for my learning needs as well. What does he say when you solo for him? Glenn can have some pretty strong opinions, and IME, he's usually right. He doesn't hesitate to tell me when my playing doesn't sound so hot. 
But then again, it's the same reason why I love going to him. I wouldn't be surprised if he echo's the same stuff many of our esteemed players here are saying, and I'm sure he could help you out.
But then again, it's the same reason why I love going to him.
I wouldn't be surprised if he echo's the same stuff many of our esteemed players here are saying, and I'm sure he could help you out.
Well ya'all, Again thanks for your feedback & great ears!!
I 've been playing DB for 3 1/2 years & EB for 12 years (as a weekend warrior) & also work a typical 40 hr day gig. The joke around my office is " he works here to support his music."
to:King Hdiddy- fellow Glen disciple..I started DB with Glen.
and his comments in the past are similar to the most experienced TB' rs: "Too Fusion-ey" was the one term he like to use.. " Try again."
I stopped studying with Glen last Aug 'cause my right arm
tendontis was acting up and finally this month--my chiro gave me a thumbs up.
For soloists: for that tune: ( B. Love) I was listening to Scotty for ideas.
For the other tune: ( Stolen Moments) I was listening to
Charles Tolliver with Booker Ervin's "Structurally Sound".
For other soloists: I listen to variety of people: more sax &
trumpet than bass.
Not much of Stanley or Brian- altho I do like them, but more folks like: George Mraz, Albert Stinson, Steve Swallow (DB only), Tony Dumas, Sam Jones, Oscar, Miroslav, Doug, & of course- Paul.
sax players- Jackie Mclean, Hank Mobley, Booker Ervin, Sonny Criss, etc.
trumpet- Miles, Lee Morgan, Freddie H., Blue Mitchell, Charles Tolliver, etc.
It looks like: back to the drawing board!!
I 've been playing DB for 3 1/2 years & EB for 12 years (as a weekend warrior) & also work a typical 40 hr day gig. The joke around my office is " he works here to support his music."
to:King Hdiddy- fellow Glen disciple..I started DB with Glen.
and his comments in the past are similar to the most experienced TB' rs: "Too Fusion-ey" was the one term he like to use.. " Try again."
I stopped studying with Glen last Aug 'cause my right arm
tendontis was acting up and finally this month--my chiro gave me a thumbs up.
For soloists: for that tune: ( B. Love) I was listening to Scotty for ideas.
For the other tune: ( Stolen Moments) I was listening to
Charles Tolliver with Booker Ervin's "Structurally Sound".
For other soloists: I listen to variety of people: more sax &
trumpet than bass.
Not much of Stanley or Brian- altho I do like them, but more folks like: George Mraz, Albert Stinson, Steve Swallow (DB only), Tony Dumas, Sam Jones, Oscar, Miroslav, Doug, & of course- Paul.
sax players- Jackie Mclean, Hank Mobley, Booker Ervin, Sonny Criss, etc.
trumpet- Miles, Lee Morgan, Freddie H., Blue Mitchell, Charles Tolliver, etc.
It looks like: back to the drawing board!!
- Mar 1, 2002
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- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
My viewpoint on this comes from 'being on the outside looking in'.. Instead of the opposite ofcourse. I played for 20 years in NY and when on my first Jazz gigs, I tried to play everything I knew or thought I knew.. And that wasn't always during my Solo!...lol
I was young and used each gig as my sounding board and practice venue untill I started to mature... Later, I would get calls for Shows like Shirley Bassey or Johnny Mathis etc.. You know the singers/shows/concert stuff around NY. On occassion I had a Solo like one week with Jimmy Roselli at Westbury.. I had a 2 bar intro on 'our love is here to stay' and then Jimmy and I did a duet..I walked the Changes as he sang. The second chours (I think?.. can't remember exactly) The Band crept in/came in.. w/e.. and so on.. This was a full Big Band + playing ON STAGE, (not in the Pit like usually there) for about 3,000 people a night.
Well, the first night I got too fancy and had to Improv as Jimmy got lost during my "Ray Lafarro" Intro. I was asked to keep it simple so he knew where to come in... I did as asked and it made me a better musician for it..
The point is... When you play with Bill Evans, you can play a 'Scotty/Eddie' Type Solo... When your playing with Buddy DeFranco/Glenn Miller Band, stick with the Milt Hinton Stuff or Ray Brown.. Even during the Quartet solo part of the performance of 'Bye bye Blackbird'.. You have to blend in to the situation you were hired for...
In the last few years after coming out of retirement to mainly play for enjoyment, I have played Dixie Land Solos with a full 60pc concert Band, Progressive Jazz solos and parts with a Jazz trio, A written/interpeted solo with a Symphony playing Pizz on 'Tango' and a Bowed Solo with a Chamber group..just to name a few examples..
All of these venues had to be respected for what they were. A Gig is a Gig.. Like a Job.. You have to do what is expected of you to keep it... Oh and most of all..., "Be on time, dont' be late"
I was young and used each gig as my sounding board and practice venue untill I started to mature... Later, I would get calls for Shows like Shirley Bassey or Johnny Mathis etc.. You know the singers/shows/concert stuff around NY. On occassion I had a Solo like one week with Jimmy Roselli at Westbury.. I had a 2 bar intro on 'our love is here to stay' and then Jimmy and I did a duet..I walked the Changes as he sang. The second chours (I think?.. can't remember exactly) The Band crept in/came in.. w/e.. and so on.. This was a full Big Band + playing ON STAGE, (not in the Pit like usually there) for about 3,000 people a night.
Well, the first night I got too fancy and had to Improv as Jimmy got lost during my "Ray Lafarro" Intro. I was asked to keep it simple so he knew where to come in... I did as asked and it made me a better musician for it..
The point is... When you play with Bill Evans, you can play a 'Scotty/Eddie' Type Solo... When your playing with Buddy DeFranco/Glenn Miller Band, stick with the Milt Hinton Stuff or Ray Brown.. Even during the Quartet solo part of the performance of 'Bye bye Blackbird'.. You have to blend in to the situation you were hired for...
In the last few years after coming out of retirement to mainly play for enjoyment, I have played Dixie Land Solos with a full 60pc concert Band, Progressive Jazz solos and parts with a Jazz trio, A written/interpeted solo with a Symphony playing Pizz on 'Tango' and a Bowed Solo with a Chamber group..just to name a few examples..
All of these venues had to be respected for what they were. A Gig is a Gig.. Like a Job.. You have to do what is expected of you to keep it... Oh and most of all..., "Be on time, dont' be late"
Thanks again, Ken & everyone else in the earlier posts.
and especially to " Big Daddy Warbucks" ( Paul W.) who
suggested I post the tunes & thread.
Been "re-examin' my concept of soloing... slowly... after reading everyone's comments.
to start:
1) 8th note flow.
2) chordal rather than linear lines for now.
3) simpler lines rather a cluster of complex 16th notes.
4) working more on intonation on the thumb positions.
5) being more appro solo for the tune rather than techno-
approach.
6) and trying to be on more on time..( if her highness calls
again.)
I wuz just late once to this gig because of traffic..
It starts at 630 pm: So I have to navigate during rush
hour:
thru the airport, thru the city, cross the Golden Gate
Bridge, and finally thru Marin traffic. About an 1 1/2 hour
without any traffic accidents from my house.
Hdidy would know about traffic in the Bay Area!!
and especially to " Big Daddy Warbucks" ( Paul W.)
whosuggested I post the tunes & thread.
Been "re-examin' my concept of soloing... slowly...
after reading everyone's comments. to start:
1) 8th note flow.
2) chordal rather than linear lines for now.
3) simpler lines rather a cluster of complex 16th notes.
4) working more on intonation on the thumb positions.
5) being more appro solo for the tune rather than techno-
approach.
6) and trying to be on more on time..( if her highness calls
again.)
I wuz just late once to this gig because of traffic..
It starts at 630 pm: So I have to navigate during rush
hour:
thru the airport, thru the city, cross the Golden Gate
Bridge, and finally thru Marin traffic. About an 1 1/2 hour
without any traffic accidents from my house.
Hdidy would know about traffic in the Bay Area!!
I know this is an old thread but I think this may be my new favorite quote. Thanks Ed.
