Got fired from two bands, help a brother improve his groove!

[Hamish MacCleod]

OneDrop: I *hate* dancing. H-A-T-E it. I love helping other people dance, and I love watching people do it, but I myself am a *terrible* dancer. The whitest of the white. Folks describe someone as having 'two left feet'? I have 'two left stumps'. All my rhythm and 'fonk' and soul is from the elbows down (...heh)

Do you think this might be partly a reason?

I'm not qualified to comment on the playing but I will say this, taking ballroom dance lessons greatly improved my ability to find the 'groove' and pleased my wife more than I can say... most community colleges have these courses. You might give it a try.
Rondo

 

[Ric5]

Is it just me or does this drummer sound pretty bad? Maybe you're not living in because they can't hold a beat?

I often wonder this in my band... I feel like the eyes are on me if somethings not working, but I have no idea what I could be doing wrong. I always suspect it's a shotty rhythm from the guitar or drums...

Ya ... I was thinking that guy is not such a great drummer ... poorly tuned drums and a little sloppy

 

[Kmonk]

It's not bad. In my opinion, not enough to get fired over. They should have at least recorded practices and given you some advice on where you needed to improve. The drummer is steady but as others have mentioned, your playing is tentative and seems to lack confidence. The bass is the link between the rhythm and the melody and as such, should really be the most confident member of the band. If that link falls apart, any song has the potential to become a train wreck. There were no disasters but it could have been better. Work on your timing. Ask them for an opportunity to play again. Tell them that you are wiling to work hard but need specifics as to what they are looking for.

I was fired from a band because I wasn't locking in. The keyboard player who is professionally trained and has degrees from Berklee, and several other well known music schools and now holds a "Chair" position at Berklee was the one who engineered my firing. A couple of months later he called me to apologize and said he realized that the problem was the drummer. I rejoined the band and he and I very good friends. He calls me for all of his recording projects even though I have never had a lesson in my life and he could choose from many formally trained musicians. Hard work pays off.

 

[Shanebo]

So, in the last six months I have been let go from not one, but TWO high-level bands with "our drummer just isn't locking in with you".... Please, for the music, my career, and my sanity, unload with both barrels so I can improve.

So here's both barrels, sparing you the kindness at your request...

Lead-off tune, too little audible to assess, but as an opener, it was ok.

Second song, I was hoping for just a plain ol' driving quarter note down low to enhance the drive that the drummer is putting down solidly. Seemed like you were noodling around and bouncing roots/fifths like old school country. Not terribly convincing.

Third song, much better, but again, too busy in the bass. I hear lots of passing notes and leading rhythms--fun to play, but really separate from the kick drum. This style demands a lot of straight, boring, low, driving, but convincing bass. Gots to do the chores, mang.

Fourth song (after the commercial break), intro was a mess. Have no idea what the style is supposed to be, but it sounds like a mash-up of latin/rock, with a singer that could use some lessons.

Fifth song, really can't tell what you're playing at all in this particular mix. I have the bass boost version going, and also have bass boost adjustment on my speakers cranked. Take that back, I just heard something that sounded like a bass lick/fill at about the 19:45 mark. If that's the only thing that gets heard in a song, better to not be heard at all--"first do no harm" and all...

Sixth song, now you're talking. This song convinces me that you're listening to the rest of the band. It's the most convincing one yet. Still a little bass solo at about the 22 minute mark--this drummer might find that bothersome/overreaching.

A little aside here--like his style or not, this drummer is rock solid with his tempo, and may not appreciate the bass deviating from him at all. It's not every drummer that can hold his own and demand respect from a good bass player, but this guy has at least earned that level of respect from the rest of the band.

The next few tunes between 22 and 30 minutes could be characterized as too busy in the bass as well. Eights where it should be quarters, and lots of walking that does stand out. I'm guessing that the drummer would rather you stay with him more and mind the chores rather than have too much fun.

That's all I've got time for right now, and I really do respect you for putting yourself out there--takes guts, and objective feedback is a gift, even if it isn't fun to hear.

With this type of drummer, I'd figure out a way to make him sound as good as possible, rather than focus on how I could sound awesome. If you and he agreed more often, this band would be better by a long ways.

All the best,

Shane

 

[Growlmonkee]

I listened to a bunch..my honest opinion, and it's just an opinion, I heard you playing, and the drummer playing, but, you guys were not locking down the timing together, and providing a solid foundation..together..for the rest of the band to play to. the drummer isn't driving, and neither are you. I know it's a recording, nothing like live, but you seemed to be in the background a bit too much, and no one is driving. The hiccups did not bother me, to me, the problem isn't there. That guitar should be playing to what you and the drummer do, he sounds like he is trying to carry a beat, he should be playing to one that's already established. I don't mean to pound on you, it's a rhythm section fail, not all you, and it wasn't horrible. ok...here it is ...for that kind of music you should be a take no prisoners driving unstoppable force, and should be much louder, and have a more defined sound, bass and drummer should leave the singer, and guitar no choice but to follow a heart pumping beat, and I don't know that they will get that out of that drummer either. No offence meant, it might be more in attitude than playing ability. I hope something I typed helps, bands come and go, better to have one afraid to take the stage without you...attitude.....just listened again, give a listen to Allman bros., .38 Special.(Wild Eyed Southern Boys)

 

[tilehilder]

That's all I've got time for right now, and I really do respect you for putting yourself out there--takes guts, and objective feedback is a gift, even if it isn't fun to hear.

Couldn't agree more. Takes some guts.

Unless the drummer is someone you really know, I'd take his advice with a grain of salt. One other option would be to find the best drummer in your area and see if you can take a couple of lessons with them on drums and you on bass. That way your getting feedback and confidence from a really good player.

 

[SamJ]

Your playing while not perfect is not bad... and frankly it smacs of hypocrisy to ask you to leave, as apart from the keyboardist the rest of them weren't all that impressive either, I think as much of the locking in problem is the drummer as it is you (and you are fine, just too subdued and in the background)... I'd say maybe they were looking for a bassist who could "carry" them a bit further, as in add to what they lack, which is a solid sense of timing..... Some of your notes ring out and others seem abrupt, so work on tone during and over all tone.. The amount of snare and high hat the drummer used in many songs was far too excessive..

You played fine, if a bit subdued, and "in the back ground" for being central to the beat of the band..

 

[Gravy4001]

Just listened to set 1, I'm not familiar with a lot of the country tunes so I don't know what they're supposed to sound like BUT the ones I'm familiar with and have played I can comment on. Cruise, all summer long, uptown funk while not bad you're def not locking in. Are you having trouble hearing the other instruments on stage? First things first you gotta make sure you and the drummer are tight before you can start thinking about other stuff. Try a rhythm section practice, you and the drummer get in a room and don't come out til you find the pocket. Also practice playing along to the original recordings and learning songs note for note, copy the timing, phrasing exactly as recorded and your technique will quickly improve. And when playing live / rehearsing make an effort to listen to everyone else more than you listen to yourself. PS at the end of the night if you keep people dancing then you are doing fine, sounds like you are. Good luck! PPS on the other hand there are some drummers occasionally who we just don't ever gel with for some odd reason...maybe you got unlucky twice in a row.

 

[jeff5311]

It's not your playing. You're getting dumped because of how you look on stage, Or due to your personality.

That's OK though. You can improve both of these as long as you recognize them as a problem.

Are you a big dude? overweight? Dress weird? Feel uncomfortble socially with the band members?

Any / all of these are more likely the reason.

Don't over-analyze your playing. Of course you can always play better, but thinking your playing is the reason for getting dumped is just wrong.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

I'm not hearing you as the guy that should be booted. Your playing has some issues, but nothing I'm not kicking my head in against on a regular basis. As has been said you were tentative and your timing floated a little; I will say that I'm not feeling any fun coming off of that recording, which could be a big deal.

You said earlier in the thread that you have a horrible case of whitisitis and therefore cannot dance, and I'm calling BS on that. You may look stupid when you move, but it's been my experience that people would prefer to see someone have fun and look stupid than look stoic and cool and boring. You've gotta have a BOATLOAD of personality or chops to stand like a stone for 1 to 3 hours and have people be glad they saw you. I say step that up.

 

[DJSoda]

Sir - you should be commended for your resolve and openness to constructive criticism.

I heard some of the tracks and my thoughts aren't too different from what others have said.

1. The playing does come across as slightly tentative and had a tendency to fall behind the beat now and then. Do you feel intimidated by the others' years of experience vs yours? Do they know each other better collectively than they do you? That kind of dynamic can effect playing for sure. Play with confidence my friend. Let them know you are there to hold s**t down.

2. The bass did seem to get lost in the mix. Don't know if that's due to the recording but they may have thought you were a weak link simply because they could not hear / feel your presence?

None of these are reasons for firing in my view. Nothing that couldn't have been worked out with some honest, constructive, mature discussion with the band - especially the drummers.

Just my ten cents. Hope this helps. Thanks.

 

[rockinb]

I listened to the entire last file and some of the first file. I agree with some of the responses and have one other to offer:

a) I tried counting while listening and you do sound a tad bit off here and there, but nothing really major.

b) You do get lost in the mix. Because you are getting lost in the mix, the bass sounds very tentative and as others mentioned, not driving.

c) Although you did not play the songs incorrectly, I could not get a good sense of the beat. It was hard to bob my head to the tunes. When I listened closely, I could hear the beat you were playing, but it just did not drive me to bob my head or tap my toes to the beat. I am not accomplished enough a player to critique you on why, but can just offer the observation.

d) Tone - no one else has mentioned, but another idea is that your tone is making you sound like you are not doing your job as well as you are. I agree with another poster that if you recorded this set with a Zoom H4N about 15' from the stage, you should get all kinds of bass in the recording, but it is hard to hear you in the recording. The fact that they asked you to turn down your stage volume indicates that you had plenty of boom. However, the overall tone is not cutting through the mix, and as a result you sound somewhat dull and sloppy. Even if you are playing locked in, your bass gets lost and that can give the impression that you are not locking in. I say this observation because when I listen closely, really trying to pull out the bass and I count, your playing is not bad at all and pretty much on beat. However, overall it sounds like it is off because your bass notes are getting lost and it sounds like it bleeds into other beats that you may not actually be playing. The bass getting lost in the mix can also lend to the impression that you are playing tentatively and the bass is not driving.

e) Lastly, I totally agree with others. You are a good bass player. You are also very courageous for opening yourself up to criticism. The fact that you are reaching out in order to improve also shows you are probably a pretty good band mate.

Keep us posted and let us know what you figure out.

Rock on!

 

[moody]

From what I hear (with difficulty and good headphones). So far only a bit of set three.

You hit the beginning of each note on time. You do not have good control of when your notes end. Try an excercise where when you hear the kick you have a note, when the snare hits stop the note. This isn't a hard and fast rule but it is a way of trying to groove with what the drummer is doing.

The other thing I noticed is that I am not hearing any bass grooving, except for iconic parts the bass is either playing on the one or pumping. For example, When I play I often play a note on the one and four of the bar.

In the first song of set two (which I don't know) I want to hear a note on 1 and 2 of every bar for the whole song (with authority).

Overall less notes, constant groove and authority.

 

[5below]

I'm not hearing you as the guy that should be booted. Your playing has some issues, but nothing I'm not kicking my head in against on a regular basis. As has been said you were tentative and your timing floated a little; I will say that I'm not feeling any fun coming off of that recording, which could be a big deal.

You said earlier in the thread that you have a horrible case of whitisitis and therefore cannot dance, and I'm calling BS on that. You may look stupid when you move, but it's been my experience that people would prefer to see someone have fun and look stupid than look stoic and cool and boring. You've gotta have a BOATLOAD of personality or chops to stand like a stone for 1 to 3 hours and have people be glad they saw you. I say step that up.

Definitely have to move on stage, which helps you get the groove. I don't dance around like a flea on a griddle, but as I learned the songs better it freed me up to move a bit and maintain eye contact with the audience and the other band members. It certainly helps to be able to have fun with the drummer if his and your personalities allow it.

b) You do get lost in the mix. Because you are getting lost in the mix, the bass sounds very tentative and as others mentioned, not driving.

c) Although you did not play the songs incorrectly, I could not get a good sense of the beat. It was hard to bob my head to the tunes. When I listened closely, I could hear the beat you were playing, but it just did not drive me to bob my head or tap my toes to the beat. I am not accomplished enough a player to critique you on why, but can just offer the observation.

d) Tone - no one else has mentioned, but another idea is that your tone is making you sound like you are not doing your job as well as you are. I agree with another poster that if you recorded this set with a Zoom H4N about 15' from the stage, you should get all kinds of bass in the recording, but it is hard to hear you in the recording. The fact that they asked you to turn down your stage volume indicates that you had plenty of boom. However, the overall tone is not cutting through the mix, and as a result you sound somewhat dull and sloppy. Even if you are playing locked in, your bass gets lost and that can give the impression that you are not locking in. I say this observation because when I listen closely, really trying to pull out the bass and I count, your playing is not bad at all and pretty much on beat. However, overall it sounds like it is off because your bass notes are getting lost and it sounds like it bleeds into other beats that you may not actually be playing. The bass getting lost in the mix can also lend to the impression that you are playing tentatively and the bass is not driving.

e) Lastly, I totally agree with others. You are a good bass player. You are also very courageous for opening yourself up to criticism. The fact that you are reaching out in order to improve also shows you are probably a pretty good band mate.

Rock on!

I agree. I though you were good enough, but it was hard to hear you and I think you get lost in the mix. I play country covers and look for a deep low thump that gets people moving on the dance floor. Since we play only one style, I can pretty well set my tone and leave it. With the variety of styles you are playing, however, you probably need to adjust your tone during the set depending on the song so you can be heard better.

I definitely second rockinb's letter e comment. Kudos to you and shame on your bands for not trying to get to what would make it work for everybody.

 

[Ric5]

Practice with a drum machine ... a lot

 

[TripleDouble]

An inability to dance can be cured instantly by ceasing to give a crap what you look like while dancing. Thrash about to the beat in some manner that feels good, and poof!, you are dancing.

 

[NeckPickup]

I just listened to "Smooth" in the third set. This is a cover band. We could debate whether it's good to play a part close to the recorded bass line, but I typically learn it as close to the recorded line as possible to start, and then gradually throw in a little of my own personality. I believe I read an interview with Lee Sklar where he actually does something similar when touring with an artist (but probably eventually takes more liberties than I could/would). If you listen to that original track, there are some nice subtle octaves on the main groove, plus a sort of laid back feel that you miss, among other things. So my advice is to first listen very closely to the originals (if possible) to start with a solid foundation from which to build your own musical statement. The guys playing on the record are generally really good, and getting inside their heads is very helpful to me in playing good-sounding bass lines for covers.

Good luck.

 

[dheafey]

The bass is the link between the rhythm and the melody and as such, should really be the most confident member of the band. If that link falls apart, any song has the potential to become a train wreck.

+1

As others have said, kudos for having the courage to put yourself out there for some constructive criticism.

I would agree with others that you sometimes sound a little tentative. I heard you "thinking about the next run" a few times. Keep it basic. Also, as a bassist it's not enough to just get the notes right. Your right hand has to lock in with the drummer. In many songs we do, I think of the kick drum beater hitting my strings. I usually learn the notes to a song, then go back and focus hard on the right hand to get the rhythm right, how the notes fall.

I'll use "Cruise" as an example: you're being Staccato (sharply separated) when you should be Legato (notes fading into one another). I would also suggest that, in a 1 guitar band, you have to cover when he goes into a solo. That's when you can get a little busier and fill up the sonic landscape a bit. You don't have to solo underneath him, just hold notes a bit longer and/or groove with the drummer to fill things out.

Tone-wise, do you have a compressor? It seemed that when you went high, you were digging in and it was somewhat distracting to me. Again, in this kind of 1 guitar band you need to be careful about making sure things are filled out. You don't have to stay low all the time, but be judicious about being too busy and/or "thinning out".

Honestly, these things are usually ironed out with a bit of time and effort, something this band doesn't seem willing to invest. Boo on them, IMO. I would also suggest, while the band is decent, they have some systemic issues that need to be addressed. While we don't do as much country as this band, we do cover many of the same songs and do it with keys and 2 guitars; modern country has a crapload going on and this band sounds empty and a bit lifeless covering it. I honestly feel that while you have some chances for improvement (don't we all!!), they are asking too much of you.

Rock on and, again, you're a very courageous person.

 

[AuBassMan]

I skipped around and listened to a few songs. I play some Jason Aldean covers too....try listening to the original with headphones...Tully lays down some great bass lines and it sounds like there's a lot that you aren't playing. I use an app that I can slow down and loop sections to help learn those parts...helps a lot.

 

[Mark Repass]

So, in the last six months I have been let go from not one, but TWO high-level bands with "our drummer just isn't locking in with you". Once is a fluke. Twice, the problem is me, and damn any 'confounding issues'. The problem is, I... don't hear it. A common thread between the two bands is the keyboard player - when I got let go from Band #1, he brought me over to Band #2 specifically because he liked my playing, and couldn't understand what was the deal in Band #1. Band #2 just voted me out from this last gig, with nary a word to me about 'hey man, you're sucking'. Keyboard player called me up with the news and was like "I just don't understand it, but you've been voted off the island". I don't have any recordings from Band #1, but I just happened to record this past weekend's gig from Band #2, and have the files here:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (right-click, choose 'Save As...'; if the bass seems too low in the mix, check out the BassBoost directory. Same files, bass boosted +2.0 dB)

Brethren and Sistren of bass, I would be forever indebted to you if you could listen to as much of the above tracks (there's three - one for each set, each about an hour long except for Set 3 where my batteries ran out) and give me BRUTAL, HONEST, constructive criticism of *** I'm doing wrong (if anything). I am not hearing a problem in the above tracks. Aside from a couple of hiccups here and there, maybe some stiffness early in the first set, I think it's fine modern-country-cover-band bass playing. All I know is that this is the SECOND time in six months I've been let go with the SAME comment re: 'not locking in', 'just not working out', and whatever it is I need to change. Please, for the music, my career, and my sanity, unload with both barrels so I can improve.

So, in the last six months I have been let go from not one, but TWO high-level bands with "our drummer just isn't locking in with you". Once is a fluke. Twice, the problem is me, and damn any 'confounding issues'. The problem is, I... don't hear it. A common thread between the two bands is the keyboard player - when I got let go from Band #1, he brought me over to Band #2 specifically because he liked my playing, and couldn't understand what was the deal in Band #1. Band #2 just voted me out from this last gig, with nary a word to me about 'hey man, you're sucking'. Keyboard player called me up with the news and was like "I just don't understand it, but you've been voted off the island". I don't have any recordings from Band #1, but I just happened to record this past weekend's gig from Band #2, and have the files here:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (right-click, choose 'Save As...'; if the bass seems too low in the mix, check out the BassBoost directory. Same files, bass boosted +2.0 dB)

Brethren and Sistren of bass, I would be forever indebted to you if you could listen to as much of the above tracks (there's three - one for each set, each about an hour long except for Set 3 where my batteries ran out) and give me BRUTAL, HONEST, constructive criticism of *** I'm doing wrong (if anything). I am not hearing a problem in the above tracks. Aside from a couple of hiccups here and there, maybe some stiffness early in the first set, I think it's fine modern-country-cover-band bass playing. All I know is that this is the SECOND time in six months I've been let go with the SAME comment re: 'not locking in', 'just not working out', and whatever it is I need to change. Please, for the music, my career, and my sanity, unload with both barrels so I can improve.

It's hard to tell with the live recording but you sounded pretty good to me. Being a drummer and a bass player I understand the importance of synchronicity with the drummer. But you have to be brave enough to step out front and be solid too. If that is really the issue, A metronome could help when you rehearse. Or even better, I have always used a drum machine to rehearse with. Korg makes a great little one for about 75 bucks. Hang in there and keep om plunkn'.