- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,987
- 5
- 220,781
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Not unless it’s stated at 1M.
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GR Bass or Barefaced - Best efficiency? [a small experiment]
- Thread starter gtirard
- Start date
This post is making me very sensitive.
Thank you for this comparison. This must be spread
Unfortunately I have to chance to get Barefaced cabs in Europe and always read of them interested.
1. Bass cabs maker don't use one specific way to measure/calculate/publish sensitivity which leads to the same figure published for Ampeg 8x10 cab and Markbass 4x6 discontinued New York cab.
Some measure 1khz, some measure average between 50Hz and 5kHz (Mesa), some publish a figure and that's it. There is no industry standard and therefore figures can't be compared. In the end it's always the ear to judge. Perfect situation is to have the cab you want to assess in the context you wish to use it. If comparing more cabs, a switcher would be best solution.
2. Ideal situation for me would be a plot of 1W SPL over frequency range AND maximum undistorted SPL over frequency range. Low end in my experience is easiest to go over linearity. I once found information that the heavier the cone, the lower is the low extension and the lower is the sensitivity.
3. I used few times a dB meter in my cell phone and results aren't repeatable. SPL would vary several dB whenever I closed the app and open it again. However as long as I didn't close the app, results were the same. This is clear I could measure relative values (with a grain of salt), i. e. one cab to another, but not absolute SPL.
I don't know the repeatability of the one you are using.
Whether
measured SPL is consistent with actual SPL, is totally different kind of an animal and requires calibrated instruments I don't have.
OK, good to know. But I've asked to both Barefaced and GR Bass, and they both confirmed 1 W / 1 m.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,987
- 5
- 220,781
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Many use 1W/1M but not all. Some use 2.83V which is 2 watts into a 4 ohm load. Cute way to inflate the number.
I agree with most of your comments, about the excellence of GR Bass cabs in particular.
But not this one:
It's quite the opposite. I think their products are so good they should not embellish the figures, it would help the reputation of the brand in the long run.
It's not superfluous to warn fellow bassists who may want to buy a cab, that despite a 6 dB difference, their cabs are not louder than Barefaced.
Regarding the weight, I agree their 212 leaves the competition in the dust, including Barefaced, when the weight is an important criteria.
But when I compare my Barefaced 1x12 and my GR Bass 2x10, the 3 Kg weight difference doesn't make much difference in real life - they're both easy to carry with one hand and take anywhere.
And, for the record, there is also a discussion about the weight of their cabs on the official GR Bass thread, some customers verified and found out their GR Bass cab turned out to be heavier than specified. And I also had a discussion with them about the misleading color of the photos of the Natural Fiber cabs in their marketing.
At the end of the day, I don't trust *ANY* of their marketing. I prefer companies who are more cautious and sincere like Mesa or Barefaced, but maybe it's just me.
Problem is there are less and less physical stores where we can go and try gear to make a well informed purchase decision, and more and more websites where we can buy direct, so we rely partly on specs to make our purchase decisions nowadays - So yes, I think it matters.
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Strange that @Bassheart365's comment was removed after I commented it…
Another example: suppose someone hesitates between Barefaced Big Twin 3 and GR Bass AT212.
Has anyone A/B test these two?
On paper, the GR is louder (103 dB) than the Barefaced (100 dB)
But from my little experiment, I would tend to think it is the opposite: I think the Big Twin should be noticeably louder than the AT212 (I agree that at this level of crazy loudness it doesn't count so much, but others might have different criteria)
Another example: suppose someone hesitates between Barefaced Big Twin 3 and GR Bass AT212.
Has anyone A/B test these two?
On paper, the GR is louder (103 dB) than the Barefaced (100 dB)
But from my little experiment, I would tend to think it is the opposite: I think the Big Twin should be noticeably louder than the AT212 (I agree that at this level of crazy loudness it doesn't count so much, but others might have different criteria)
I am inclined to believe that GR simply repeats and adapts the woofer manufacturer's claims (I think they use either SICA or FaitalPro speakers). That is a 1kHz measurement usually (IIRC). If you have two of them, add 3dB to the figure. Anyway, I wouldn't trust a phone app for these measurements. An SPL meter doesn't cost much and can turn useful in many other instances.
Besides, low power measurements are sort of disingenuous, if only because at higher power levels other factors kick in (is the reflex port well-dimensioned? Most importantly, how much power compression do the woofers exhibit? How much power can the cabinet take and still sound nice? Etc.). Also timbre plays a role.
On a final note, do not trust *anybody's* marketing. Not even Mesa's or Barefaced's. There is an obvious asymmetry between you and the companies: they want to extract your money from you, and they know things that you might never realise. The companies (probably) know exactly what kind of flaws each of their product has, but they're never going to tell you about them. Even if they provide "facts". (Nietzsche once said: there are no facts, only interpretations, and I subscribe to this).
Besides, low power measurements are sort of disingenuous, if only because at higher power levels other factors kick in (is the reflex port well-dimensioned? Most importantly, how much power compression do the woofers exhibit? How much power can the cabinet take and still sound nice? Etc.). Also timbre plays a role.
On a final note, do not trust *anybody's* marketing. Not even Mesa's or Barefaced's. There is an obvious asymmetry between you and the companies: they want to extract your money from you, and they know things that you might never realise. The companies (probably) know exactly what kind of flaws each of their product has, but they're never going to tell you about them. Even if they provide "facts". (Nietzsche once said: there are no facts, only interpretations, and I subscribe to this).
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I agree with most of your comments, but:
AT 110 -> 98 dB SPL
AT 210 -> 103 dB SPL
AT 410 -> 104 dB SPL
AT 610 -> 106 dB SPL
AT 810 -> 106 dB SPL
That 103 dB for the 210 is strange by itself: + 5 dB compared to the 110, equal to the AT212, and only -1 dB compared to the 410. Before buying my cab, I asked GR Bass to confirm, they said yes, 103 dB SPL / 1W / 1m
I didn't want to get an absolute measure, it was a comparative measure from the same source, with the same tool, and 2 cabs. And most of all, I just wanted a confirmation of what my ears told me.
There is a possibility that some of those cabs use a different woofer (for example, a 110 cabinet might benefit from a woofer that goes further down, at the expense of some sensitivity since it's so high to begin with).
That said, GR is, essentially, a very small company. A *very small* *Italian* company, from the south of Italy. A *very small* *southern Italian* company. (Have I emphasized this enough?). Now, I happen to live in the same town as Mr. GR, and he was, in fact, my first (and only) bass teacher. He has a background in electronics (he used to work for a small EE company), but he is not an engineer. He is what you would call, I guess, a "maker" these days. (Of course, for his products he does employ the services of an engineer, otherwise he wouldn't be able to sell them at all). And one thing that is quite common here in the South of Italy is a certain... informality (in everything). If you actually peruse his Facebook profile (I mean, his company's) his online communication approach is what would some say genuine, others haphazard. I believe he takes care of his online presence personally.
What you might construe as dishonest is, much more simply put, just a bit imprecise (or, if you prefer, "unprofessional". But that's a fact of life over here. We... kind of take pride in our yokel-ness... But in general, standards of business communication are kind of "low" here in Italy in general. It is what it is). He is, first and foremost, a bass player that wanted to make his own amplifier, then things got bigger down the road. (He even explicitly says so in his posts, with some local dialect interspersed in with Italian... and punctuation/spelling errors
). There isn't all that structure to the company. Also, when you keep in mind that he caters for the MI market, vague technical descriptions are par for the course.
That said, GR is, essentially, a very small company. A *very small* *Italian* company, from the south of Italy. A *very small* *southern Italian* company. (Have I emphasized this enough?). Now, I happen to live in the same town as Mr. GR, and he was, in fact, my first (and only) bass teacher. He has a background in electronics (he used to work for a small EE company), but he is not an engineer. He is what you would call, I guess, a "maker" these days. (Of course, for his products he does employ the services of an engineer, otherwise he wouldn't be able to sell them at all). And one thing that is quite common here in the South of Italy is a certain... informality (in everything). If you actually peruse his Facebook profile (I mean, his company's) his online communication approach is what would some say genuine, others haphazard. I believe he takes care of his online presence personally.
What you might construe as dishonest is, much more simply put, just a bit imprecise (or, if you prefer, "unprofessional". But that's a fact of life over here. We... kind of take pride in our yokel-ness... But in general, standards of business communication are kind of "low" here in Italy in general. It is what it is). He is, first and foremost, a bass player that wanted to make his own amplifier, then things got bigger down the road. (He even explicitly says so in his posts, with some local dialect interspersed in with Italian... and punctuation/spelling errors
). There isn't all that structure to the company. Also, when you keep in mind that he caters for the MI market, vague technical descriptions are par for the course.
I thought barefaced gave broadband sensitivity but they have this on the sensitivity section of the old website (emphasis mine)
Barefaced Bass - Sensitivity - marketing and over-simplified engineering
When we at Barefaced talk about sensitivity we talk in real numbers because what's the point of specs if they're made up? You might sell some more speakers in the short-term but they'll under-perform and you'll get your comeuppance in the long-term. With our old specs we gave low frequency (100Hz) and broadband (weighted average from 200Hz to the quoted treble roll-off point) sensitivity specs. We've decided to make things easier now and give you just the pistonic sensitivity specs (basically the 80-640Hz region) in half-space as, based on further research, testing and experience we've found they're most representative of real world use.
So you’re likely getting a more representative number from the barefaced value versus a 1kHz number from GR if that’s what they report.
That said, it is sort of an Italian leitmotif that things are seemingly kind of just taped up together (figuratively speaking), but end up working very well or like nothing else. (Supercar aficionados will speak lovingly of all their Ferraris' and Lambos' "quirks"). GR's products are fine, they work very well, they're not my kind of stuff but I can see their appeal. But there is no pervasive "corporate culture" over here. While even smaller companies abroad might be very "square", replying with carefully vetted boilerplate, here things are a bit different (and I've encountered this in all sorts of companies).
Also, Alex Claber (?) of Barefaced is, I think, the actual designer. Agedhorse speaks for Mesa. They are actual technical staff.
Also, Alex Claber (?) of Barefaced is, I think, the actual designer. Agedhorse speaks for Mesa. They are actual technical staff.
There is a possibility that some of those cabs use a different woofer (for example, a 110 cabinet might benefit from a woofer that goes further down, at the expense of some sensitivity since it's so high to begin with).
That said, GR is, essentially, a very small company. A *very small* *Italian* company, from the south of Italy. A *very small* *southern Italian* company. (Have I emphasized this enough?). Now, I happen to live in the same town as Mr. GR, and he was, in fact, my first (and only) bass teacher. He has a background in electronics (he used to work for a small EE company), but he is not an engineer. He is what you would call, I guess, a "maker" these days. (Of course, for his products he does employ the services of an engineer, otherwise he wouldn't be able to sell them at all). And one thing that is quite common here in the South of Italy is a certain... informality (in everything). If you actually peruse his Facebook profile (I mean, his company's) his online communication approach is what would some say genuine, others haphazard. I believe he takes care of his online presence personally.
What you might construe as dishonest is, much more simply put, just a bit imprecise (or, if you prefer, "unprofessional". But that's a fact of life over here. We... kind of take pride in our yokel-ness... But in general, standards of business communication are kind of "low" here in Italy in general. It is what it is). He is, first and foremost, a bass player that wanted to make his own amplifier, then things got bigger down the road. (He even explicitly says so in his posts, with some local dialect interspersed in with Italian... and punctuation/spelling errors
Thanks, it explains a lot. I'm ok with that.
I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that your readings are A weighted. A weighted readings do not read frequencies evenly distributed. Specifically, dbA de-emphasizes low frequencies quite a bit and has a slight emphasis on 1,000-10,000 Hz.
Here is another observation (Not a measurement):
I compared a Super Compact to an AT212 Slim (700watt version) in a 10' X16' room with some modest sound treatment (corner bass traps).
I am very familiar with the Super Compact as it has been my main gigging cabinet for years. I just got the AT212 Slim.
I played my bass through a Tone Hammer 500 at modest volume with the cabs side by side. all I did was swap the cable between cabs. The AT212 was noticeably louder and had a fuller frequency range To My Ears. I could feel the bass more with the AT212 and the overall level was like the difference between talking normally and raising your voice but not yelling.
I know this isn't scientific at all....just an observation that in the case of the AT212 the 103db efficiency number might be closer to correct
I compared a Super Compact to an AT212 Slim (700watt version) in a 10' X16' room with some modest sound treatment (corner bass traps).
I am very familiar with the Super Compact as it has been my main gigging cabinet for years. I just got the AT212 Slim.
I played my bass through a Tone Hammer 500 at modest volume with the cabs side by side. all I did was swap the cable between cabs. The AT212 was noticeably louder and had a fuller frequency range To My Ears. I could feel the bass more with the AT212 and the overall level was like the difference between talking normally and raising your voice but not yelling.
I know this isn't scientific at all....just an observation that in the case of the AT212 the 103db efficiency number might be closer to correct
A 112 vs 212 is not a fair comparison. There is a big difference all around when doubling the number of drivers. A better comparison would have been a Super Twin and the AT212 Slim.
At this point, if I were to invest in a new 212 I think it would be a choice between the Super Twin T and an AT 212+ Slim.
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