GR Bass or Barefaced - Best efficiency? [a small experiment]

[WayneP]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that your readings are A weighted. A weighted readings do not read frequencies evenly distributed. Specifically, dbA de-emphasizes low frequencies quite a bit and has a slight emphasis on 1,000-10,000 Hz.

I noticed, but decided it wasn’t worth mentioning, as the experiment seems legit as long as the same standard was applied across the board.

For the record, here’s a graph showing the different weightings. C-weighting would seem a more logical choice for a bass speaker comparison.

File:Acoustic weighting curves (1).svg - Wikipedia

Something else to keep in mind, the SPL meter reading is most likely based on the hottest “spot” in the speaker’s frequency response curve, subject to the weighting curve.

Also, a broadband pink noise signal might have been a better signal source than music.

Experiments like this are fun, and personally I love them! But at the end of the day, nothing beats your ear for making determinations like this. I mean, when I switch off between my Barefaced Baby 2 Gen 3 and Acme B-112 Full Range, there’s no questioning which is more efficient!

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Official Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

 

[WayneP]

uhm, did you calibrate your app using a real meter?

That’s a valid point. In reality, “real” meters aren’t necessarily all that accurate, at least not the budget models people like us would typically use. Those can vary +/- 2 dB against a calibrated reference. Still, these meters (and the phone apps) can be useful in this informal situation, comparing one sound source to another.

Practically speaking, dead-on accuracy is only a requirement in legal situations, such as the night club being in compliance with noise ordinances, or OSHA standards for PEL (permissible exposure limits) in the workplace. Highly accurate Class1 meters can cost well over $2000!

Here’s a great tutorial on SPL meters – brief and to the point:

Everything You Wanted To Know About Sound Level Meters (SLMs) - ProSoundWeb

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Official Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

 

[jnewmark]

Here is another observation (Not a measurement):

I compared a Super Compact to an AT212 Slim (700watt version) in a 10' X16' room with some modest sound treatment (corner bass traps).

I am very familiar with the Super Compact as it has been my main gigging cabinet for years. I just got the AT212 Slim.

I played my bass through a Tone Hammer 500 at modest volume with the cabs side by side. all I did was swap the cable between cabs. The AT212 was noticeably louder and had a fuller frequency range To My Ears. I could feel the bass more with the AT212 and the overall level was like the difference between talking normally and raising your voice but not yelling.

I know this isn't scientific at all....just an observation that in the case of the AT212 the 103db efficiency number might be closer to correct

212 vs 112, yeah, the 212 would sound louder.

 

[5StringPocket]

I think the original post was adequate for its intended purpose, a relative volume comparison between cabs and not a lab standard reference. A simple relative comparison is enough to point out discrepancies in claimed spec values without trying to establish what they should truly be. The upshot of this is that listed specs often don’t line up with real world performance. Feedback from players who have owned and used both is valuable for info on tonal timbre and quality of construction as well as volume and presence in the mix.

 

[logdrum]

I agree that the OPs experiment is fine as is and he did ask a valid question. No need to grill about his methods etc. I think if GR and Barefaced where in the US, more of TB would be using them. I am not in band that needs 127 SPL. I also like to preserve my hearing. If I am gifted any of the 2 cabs, I will play them.

I mainly play vastly inefficient AI cabs, any other cab will be an improvement if volume is all I care for. I do have 2 EA 112 and their wattage at 200 watts is a pittance , maybe just a bit louder than most TB grumpsies' farts. I think for the Toto live tours, Lee Sklar did not necessarily go big on his EA setup also (1 410 or was it smaller) - yes he was on the FOH, but he was heard on stage with a pretty loud band.

 

[agedhorse]

Speaker sensitivity measurements are UNweighted and should be based on an average level within the bandwidth that’s appropriate for the intended application of the speaker. IMO, 50Hz-5kHz is an appropriate bandwidth for bass guitar.

Published specifications need to accurately represent the product being tested, it’s not a guess, it must match what the product is capable of delivering. If not, then no meaningful comparisons based on the published specs can be made.

Also, this has nothing to do with the size of the company, a misrepresentation, especially an intentional misrepresentation, becomes misleading when used as a comparison to competing products.

 

[Wasnex]

uhm, did you calibrate your app using a real meter?

for me those apps seem to measure the weather on the moon.

Those are not my readings.

 

[Aloe]

Those are not my readings.

my fault

 

[Roland GR 88]

Geez, this thread just limps along doesn’t it.
Never in my 40yrs of playing, recording, mixing, renting to or just listening to live bands has the stated specs of a speaker cabinet needed attention other than the ohms and the number or size of the driver(s).
If I can’t get those extra 3db I need I need a bigger amp because diming the amp and coming up short isn’t the fault of the cab. Most, if not all bass players like having some headroom to accommodate a loud drummer, a 4x12 stack, a weird room or in the case you’re forced to use a less efficient cabinet.
Real world use usually renders published specs to the moot bin anyway. Ohms, number and size of the drivers and wattage ratings are enough of a hint of what a speaker is capable of that informed decisions are pretty easy despite the nefarious ways bass amplification companies describe their products.

 

[Wasnex]

It's not just the sensitivity figures we should be concerned about. I would be more concerned with power ratings; especially if you think it's a good idea to over power cabs. By this I mean use an amp that is rated for more power than the cab.

I think a lot of companies use the RMS ratings of the drivers for the cab's power rating. This is pretty much the thermal rating of the voice coil and it's often not valid at lower frequencies where cone excursion tends to increase considerably. At low frequencies, mechanical power handling is more important. The mechanical power rating will vary by cab design. In other words, if you put the same model of driver in different designs, the mechanical power handling varies from one design to the next.

My guess is the Barefaced specs suggest overpowering their cabs. AFAIK, they don't provide a power rating, rather they provide recommended amp power. For the Super Compact, 150-600W is recommended. No idea what this means. Is 600W the RMS power rating, program power rating, mechanical power rating, or something else. Without an explanation, I assume it's the program power rating, so RMS would be 300W and mechanical could be slightly less. This is a guess and I could definitely be wrong, but I would be very surprised if a 112 with a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating can handle 600W across it's intended pass band <37hz.

Acme is another company that recommends over powering.

Note the power rating is 350W RMS, but recommended power is up to 500W. Also the design is mechanically limited to 300W at 30.87hz.

I would be fairly comfortable using a 350W amp with this cab. But I would be mindful that 350W is enough to damage the driver if I hype the lows. IMHO it's asking for trouble to use a 500W amp with this cab and push the amp to the limit.

Mesa also gives average and minimum mechanical ratings.
Subway 210 Specs

AFAIK, it's generally safe to use this cab with a 500W amp, but if you try hard enough you can still do some damage.

 

[Wasnex]

If I can’t get those extra 3db I need I need a bigger amp because diming the amp and coming up short isn’t the fault of the cab.

This is not correct on may levels.

Let's consider the Acme Low B2 specs I just posted.

At 93dB 1W/1m this cab is way towards to low sensitivity side of the spectrum.

A 350W, the calculated SPL is only 118.44dB.

I used to own one of the original Low B2s. It got the job done, but it frequently ran out of headroom. Applying more power just lead to more compression, and at a certain point the woofer voice coils would clack against the back of the pole pieces. I had to use restraint to avoid destroying the woofers. More power was not the answer.

My next touring rig used a single Eden D210XLT with a 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating pushed by 260W. The 103dB rating is probably a bit optimistic, but it was a very efficient. Calculated SPL at 260W is 127.15dB. For the record I never felt the need to push the amp to clipping with this cab. 260W was plenty. The cab was rated for 350W. The decibel difference between 260W and 350W is only 1.29dB...not significantly louder.

 

[5StringPocket]

It's not just the sensitivity figures we should be concerned about. I would be more concerned with power ratings; especially if you think it's a good idea to over power cabs. By this I mean use an amp that is rated for more power than the cab.

I think a lot of companies use the RMS ratings of the drivers for the cab's power rating. This is pretty much the thermal rating of the voice coil and it's often not valid at lower frequencies where cone excursion tends to increase considerably. At low frequencies, mechanical power handling is more important. The mechanical power rating will vary by cab design. In other words, if you put the same model of driver in different designs, the mechanical power handling varies from one design to the next.

My guess is the Barefaced specs suggest overpowering their cabs. AFAIK, they don't provide a power rating, rather they provide recommended amp power. For the Super Compact, 150-600W is recommended. No idea what this means. Is 600W the RMS power rating, program power rating, mechanical power rating, or something else. Without an explanation, I assume it's the program power rating, so RMS would be 300W and mechanical could be slightly less. This is a guess and I could definitely be wrong, but I would be very surprised if a 112 with a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating can handle 600W across it's intended pass band <37hz.

Acme is another company that recommends over powering.
View attachment 5396205

Note the power rating is 350W RMS, but recommended power is up to 500W. Also the design is mechanically limited to 300W at 30.87hz.

I would be fairly comfortable using a 350W amp with this cab. But I would be mindful that 350W is enough to damage the driver if I hype the lows. IMHO it's asking for trouble to use a 500W amp with this cab and push the amp to the limit.

Mesa also gives average and minimum mechanical ratings.
Subway 210 Specs
View attachment 5396220

AFAIK, it's generally safe to use this cab with a 500W amp, but if you try hard enough you can still do some damage.

Here is a link to the Barefaced 12XN550 driver. It's an OEM custom Eminence driver and looks to have a thermal rating of 500 watts. It doesn't specify rms but for the other drivers used in comparison it is, so I'd think for the Barefaced driver it's also rms. I think it should be stated explicitly to avoid confusion but Alex replies to email and I'm sure would answer an inquiry about his power spec. 500 watts program is very middle of the road and not in the same league as most top tier bass drivers, while 500 watts rms is on the high side but not unreasonable. I wouldn't think it's ever advisable to overpower a driver, but using an amp with ample headroom and not diming the volume is a good way to get a strong, controlled signal to make the cab sound good. I have yet to see a post from a Barefaced owner about the driver being weak and overrated.
Barefaced Bass - 12XN550 - pushing the boundaries of driver design

 

[Wasnex]

FYI. The whole reason I started bringing attention to the sensitivity rating is because many people equate loudness to power. But power alone is not really a useful figure.

Here's a example from post 351 to illustrate my point.:
350W into 93dB 1W/1m cab = ~118dB
260W into 103dB 1W/1m cab = ~127dB*

* I assume this figure to be somewhat overstated. However, this cab did have significantly more headroom than the 93dB cab. This is confirmed by my real world experience with both cabs.

In order to get the 93dB cab to 127dB, the usable power would need to be over 2500W. It should be obvious to everyone that a 210 bass cab can't handle anywhere near 2500W.

My Position:​

Yes (all) specs to include Power Rating, Frequency Response, and Sensitivity are suspect. But they are all we have when there is not an opportunity to actually demo and AB test different gear choices. My advice is use the specs, but view the results with a healthy degree of skepticism. Also do a bit of research to try and get a feel for how accurate the specs are.

Always best to validate your choice with an in-hand demo that includes an AB test between the gear you are considering.

 

[agedhorse]

Geez, this thread just limps along doesn’t it.
Never in my 40yrs of playing, recording, mixing, renting to or just listening to live bands has the stated specs of a speaker cabinet needed attention other than the ohms and the number or size of the driver(s).
If I can’t get those extra 3db I need I need a bigger amp because diming the amp and coming up short isn’t the fault of the cab. Most, if not all bass players like having some headroom to accommodate a loud drummer, a 4x12 stack, a weird room or in the case you’re forced to use a less efficient cabinet.
Real world use usually renders published specs to the moot bin anyway. Ohms, number and size of the drivers and wattage ratings are enough of a hint of what a speaker is capable of that informed decisions are pretty easy despite the nefarious ways bass amplification companies describe their products.

Except that nominal impedance, number/size of drivers and (thermal) power handling are virtually meaningless without knowing the sensitivity.

For example, an 8 ohm 210 cabinet that's (really) 100dB/1W/1M and handles 400 watts RMS (mechanically) will be MUCH louder than an 8 ohm 210 cabinet that's (really) 94dB/1W/1M and handles 800 watts thermally or "program", yet is mechanically limited to say 500 watts RMS. In fact, it would take 1600 watts into the second 210 to equal the same maximum SPL as the first cabinet.

Specs are important when they are honest, truthful and the player understands what they mean. Premium products typically provide more complete and accurate specs because they are aware of how important those specs really are.

 

[Hamrlik]

If I'm interested in and prepared to spend $1500+ for a cab then yeah, I kinda want to have as much accurate information about it as possible...both in terms of measurable specs and real world performance.

 

[Wasnex]

Here is a link to the Barefaced 12XN550 driver. It's an OEM custom Eminence driver and looks to have a thermal rating of 500 watts. It doesn't specify rms but for the other drivers used in comparison it is, so I'd think for the Barefaced driver it's also rms. I think it should be stated explicitly to avoid confusion but Alex replies to email and I'm sure would answer an inquiry about his power spec. 500 watts program is very middle of the road and not in the same league as most top tier bass drivers, while 500 watts rms is on the high side but not unreasonable. I wouldn't think it's ever advisable to overpower a driver, but using an amp with ample headroom and not diming the volume is a good way to get a strong, controlled signal to make the cab sound good. I have yet to see a post from a Barefaced owner about the driver being weak and overrated.
Barefaced Bass - 12XN550 - pushing the boundaries of driver design

I have no doubt it's a very good driver.

Note 500W into 97dB 1W/1m is ~124dB. So the calculated SPL on this table is consistent with the RMS power rating and sensitivity rating.

The product page says

Again, no idea where the 127dB rating comes from.

I would feel entirely comfortable using a 600W amp (or more) with this cab in situations where the cab can easily exceed my SPL requirements. However, I have decades of experience and a good bit of self-control. Using the cab with 600W or more in a situation where it's not loud enough could be a bit more problematic, especially with a player who lacks my experience and self control.

 

[el murdoque]

To me personally, It does not matter that much how the SPL @1W1M look like. How loud a cabinet is when fed 1W is one thing, but how loud it goes before it farts out is another.

My Super Compact does not feel extreme when I hook it up to a low powered amp.
When I hook it up to an amp with some juice, however, it just keeps getting louder when I increase the Master, and it easily reaches territory that my gut feeling (developed over decades of playing bass through cabinets) would deem impossible for a single 12" speaker, let alone a lightweight one.

 

[Boneless]

Except that nominal impedance, number/size of drivers and (thermal) power handling are virtually meaningless without knowing the sensitivity.

For example, an 8 ohm 210 cabinet that's (really) 100dB/1W/1M and handles 400 watts RMS (mechanically) will be MUCH louder than an 8 ohm 210 cabinet that's (really) 94dB/1W/1M and handles 800 watts thermally or "program", yet is mechanically limited to say 500 watts RMS. In fact, it would take 1600 watts into the second 210 to equal the same maximum SPL as the first cabinet.

Specs are important when they are honest, truthful and the player understands what they mean. Premium products typically provide more complete and accurate specs because they are aware of how important those specs really are.

This is... untrue. There are lots of boutique products whose specifications are kinda vague. If we get into audiophile territory, it's even worse (musicians are a bit like audiophiles. Most of them lacking in technical knowledge, to be charitable, and unlikely to be interested in "accurate technical specs" that much, if only because they don't really understand them that much and at the end of the day what they are interested in is either tone or weight, as well as "does it sound loud enough? Does it take power well?"). If an amp is capable of 120dB SPL at 1m (or even 115dB), does it even matter if it goes further than that?

I would add that... why should musicians be interested in technical specs if essentially *all* bass cabs, except for a scant few, are engineering dinosaurs anyway? Within that characterisation of yours, you failed to point out that however much power you are feeding into the cab, the polar dispersion of the mids (and possibly the treble, if tweeter-less) means that, unless you lift the cabinet to near-ear level and never move, or play about 5 meters in front of it, you are not actually hearing much of what the cab produces. Or the fact that stated power is almost always thermal and not mechanical (and it's the right thing to do, since users will always find a way to misread those specs anyway). See? It doesn't shaging matter these cabinets are the equivalent of a steam engine in 2024, and I suspect that a large number of bass players might be better served by some sort of preamp (with IRs or some other form of cabinet simulation, if using dirt) + PA equipment (which is usually active/powered, has an actual crossover, is generally better from a technical point of view, comes with built-in HPF to protect the speaker from user error, etc.). What people call "FRFR" cabinets. Yes, woofers these days are much more refined, you can access more advanced materials, the enclosures are ported, but they are not much different from whatever people were making in the 60s otherwise.

What is true is that premium products by established brands who can actually justify the expense of renting an anechoic chamber or otherwise carrying out meaningful measurements (by an expert technician, and not necessarily will an engineer/designer possess the know-how to do so accurately) might do so even if, legally, they are not really required to do so, because this provides them with an aura of seriousness. Which is fine.

 

[agedhorse]

To me personally, It does not matter that much how the SPL @1W1M look like. How loud a cabinet is when fed 1W is one thing, but how loud it goes before it farts out is another.

Yet you are ignoring that with accurate, honest specs, how loud it will get without farting out is DIRECTLY related to the average sensitivity bandwidth and the rated mechanical power handling. This is why we provide BOTH of these specs.

This is... untrue. There are lots of boutique products whose specifications are kinda vague. If we get into audiophile territory, it's even worse (musicians are a bit like audiophiles. Most of them lacking in technical knowledge, to be charitable, and unlikely to be interested in "accurate technical specs" that much, if only because they don't really understand them that much and at the end of the day what they are interested in is either tone or weight, as well as "does it sound loud enough? Does it take power well?"). If an amp is capable of 120dB SPL at 1m (or even 115dB), does it even matter if it goes further than that?

I would add that... why should musicians be interested in technical specs if essentially *all* bass cabs, except for a scant few, are engineering dinosaurs anyway? Within that characterisation of yours, you failed to point out that however much power you are feeding into the cab, the polar dispersion of the mids (and possibly the treble, if tweeter-less) means that, unless you lift the cabinet to near-ear level and never move, or play about 5 meters in front of it, you are not actually hearing much of what the cab produces. Or the fact that stated power is almost always thermal and not mechanical (and it's the right thing to do, since users will always find a way to misread those specs anyway). See? It doesn't shaging matter these cabinets are the equivalent of a steam engine in 2024, and I suspect that a large number of bass players might be better served by some sort of preamp (with IRs or some other form of cabinet simulation, if using dirt) + PA equipment (which is usually active/powered, has an actual crossover, is generally better from a technical point of view, comes with built-in HPF to protect the speaker from user error, etc.). What people call "FRFR" cabinets. Yes, woofers these days are much more refined, you can access more advanced materials, the enclosures are ported, but they are not much different from whatever people were making in the 60s otherwise.

What is true is that premium products by established brands who can actually justify the expense of renting an anechoic chamber or otherwise carrying out meaningful measurements (by an expert technician, and not necessarily will an engineer/designer possess the know-how to do so accurately) might do so even if, legally, they are not really required to do so, because this provides them with an aura of seriousness. Which is fine.

Yet, you didn't read what I posted with ANY accuracy. I clearly differentiated between thermal and mechanical power handling (we provide BOTH specifications for every Subway cabinets), and I also stated PREMIUM products which are different from BOUTIQUE products which may look premium on the outside but not premium at all on the inside.

You are mis-characterizing musicians (and bass players in particular) as lacking in technical knowledge... to be charitable, which IMO is hugely insulting to the community as a whole. There are quite a few knowledgeable players out there and a good number are represented here on TB.

Premium cabinets made today are very much a major improvement over the cabinets of the 1960's, claiming that they aren't is either intentionally entangling or you have no idea what you are talking about. I was there, I am very familiar with the history of speaker designing as I started professionally with this in 1980, improving on the older designs with newer materials and techniques. You claim that FRFR cabinets are much more refined, yet the drivers used in my "premium designs" are in fact the same (or better) drivers than are used in FRFR claiming products. Everything I have used over the past 20 years in bass guitar speakers is directly from the pro audio side of the industry (where I worked for much of my career).

Premium products test their products and publish their specs because it insures that the customer gets what they pay for, and that it's the right thing to do. IMO, not testing a product means that the designer/manufacturer either doesn't have the necessary knowledge, or doesn't care enough about their designs to verify that they meet their own claims.

 

[_Obra_]

I mean, one of the reasons why I bought the GR was for its great sensitivity because one of my amps is a 50W tube amp, I thought it would be loud enough for gigs with. It turns out this combo is loud enough to gig with (for small and medium gigs), which is great because the amp only weight 4.2 kg (not bad for a tube amp) and the cab 8 kg.

I'm just a little bit upset by my credulity, because the Barefaced is equaly loud, but I don't blame GR Bass. I needed 2 cabs anyway so everything is fine.

But if anyone hesitates between the 2, and wants to buy the GR because he thinks it's louder, I'm here to say "no it's not". That's all.

I also bought GR bass cab because one of my amps was a 50W tube amp that I wanted to be just a bit louder if possible. It actually was a bit louder that some other cabs (next to an unquestionable lightweight), but even so, 50W tube amp is gone and GR cab is still in my studio.