Apparently Ti is roughly half the density of Maple
You need better sources for your material properties. Titanium is lighter than steel, but far heavier than any wood.
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Graphite vs. Titanium neck reinforcement
- Thread starter Killed_by_Death
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You need better sources for your material properties. Titanium is lighter than steel, but far heavier than any wood.
- Apr 18, 2008
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Then you’ll have a dead spot at 1.2 kHz. A strange lack of sparkle as the neck soaks up the overtones of every D and G you play.
A solid titanium bar would still be heavier than wood. The benefit of titanium is that you can get an incredibly thin stiff tube.
Maple has a density of about 0.7 - some variabilty from piece to piece, but somewhere between 0.6 and 0.8. It floats in water (which has a density of 1.0.)
Titanium has a density of 4.5. It sinks like a rock in water (actually, most rock is 3.0 or under). It’s lighter than steel, brass, but heavier than aluminum (2.7) or graphite composite (about 1.7)
Titanium has a density of 4.5. It sinks like a rock in water (actually, most rock is 3.0 or under). It’s lighter than steel, brass, but heavier than aluminum (2.7) or graphite composite (about 1.7)
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I'm unable to determine if that's what KTS are doing. Here's a blurb about the Ti bars & another photo:
'
Our Graphite is very stiff and inflexible and works best to produce a clean and precise fundamental and related harmonic response for driving analogue pedal trains in detuned, high gain situations.
The KTS Titanium reinforcement is and wider more flexible with a constant “push back” relationship and will flex slightly under pick attack generating a richer tonal range and more complex harmonic response.
'
Vance Custom Guitars (Australia) introduces KTS Titanium Neck Rods | KTS English
- Apr 18, 2008
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I wish I could hear the difference for myself, I'm sure there is, but just not sure if what I observed yesterday was a direct result of the type of reinforcement.
my wife has titanium in her neck ...
still sounds the same ...!!!
still sounds the same ...!!!
Ah yes, the float-test, hadn't thought of that. I've been looking at the wrong materials density chart for years, but just found the same info you posted here.
Density of water = 1 = Metric System in action
Ti for necks is the flavor of the month. CF is stiffer by weight and a lot cheaper and easier to glue securely. For our purposes definitely superior. It's like very strong, very stiff wood. Which is always a good thing.
Titanium alloys (what is sold) like most metals are way stiffer than graphite .. a gr. 5 alloy has an elastic modulus E = 118000MPa .. this has to be compared to 15000MPa for carbon graphite, so there’s almost an order of magnitude of difference .. titanium alloy bars, hence, may have a much smaller cross-section than graphite rods in order to yield the same effect onto the deflection of a bass’ neck ... however, the same (even more as carbon steel is almost two times stiffer than a titanium alloy) may be said for standard steel rods, which, moreover, will be much cheaper ...
The use of titanium instead of steel may thus be only a waste of money from this perspective.
But you ignore the many ways carbon fiber can be laid up in different orientations. A carbon fiber tube for example, can be easily made to be much stiffer (bending) than a steel or titanium tube of equal dimensions, with less weight. It may be weaker in other directions, but for our purposes here it's superior.
No, in this case the fibres are oriented parallel to the neck’s axis direction and subjected to a state of mono-axial tension i.e. a stress thus aligned with the carbon fibres’ direction in a rod, there are no other orientations that can help in a simple stress case like this .. hence, everything only boils down to the physical properties of the material .. from a physical perspective, thus, if one can produce a carbon fibre having the same elastic modulus than a standard carbon steel, or even half of it, at a more competitive price than that of steel itself, then the weight gain factor may become quite important and desirable ...
When in the civil engineering industry we install GFRP (glass fibre reinforced plastic) bars inside diaphragm walls for the erection of underground subway station in which tunnel boring machines have to enter, in order to move from one side of the station to the opposite one to continue mining, we do it to allow the machine to easily bore through the diaphragm walls’ reinforced concrete, but we know that we will have to install a significantly higher amount of GFRP reinforcement inside the d-walls’ body in order to adequately reinforce the structure against the applied geotechnical loads with respect to a case where standard steel re-bars can be placed .. moreover, for technological aspects that I can’t explain here, GFRP rods are often more expensive than standard steel re-bars ... do bear in mind that stiffening rods in a bass’ neck do work exactly as steel re-bars in a concrete beam (these are not opinions, these are basic facts in the civil engineering field in which I work although I would prefer to work in a recording studio
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In the civil engineering field, GFRP bars (GFRP is not carbon fibre but it behaves in a similar manner when subjected to mono-axial tension) are used as concrete reinforcing members also in particular cases where cracking can’t be easily controlled in order to avoid situations of premature reinforcement corrosion, which may endanger the structure’s stability during its envisaged service life ... that is to say that there are particular situations, aside from the already mentioned subway stations, where GFRP or soft but resilient materials may be used in place of steel because of their inherent properties, accepting the additional costs that their adoption may imply
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Anyway, notwithstanding the adamant statement of an Elrick’s commercial employee that Elrick pride themselves for not using graphite anymore in their necks as they badly affect the instrument’s tone (I have to say, in favour of Elrick, that the neck of my modest Expat Evo 4, without any reinforcement, is super responsive to any adjustment of the truss rod in both directions, so fine materials indeed are selected for building the neck’s even at Elrick’s Czech Republic facilities), I voted “carrot-reinforcement is the business” .. too few data available to express a rational judgement in my opinion ...
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My Ibanez SR 6 string has a KTS in it. This is the 2nd most stable neck I have in my collection of over 35 basses. I have a bunch of carbon fiber rod reinforced neck basses but none of them have the same stability as the Ibanez.
Doesnt mean much because my Jerzy has none of the above and is as stable as ones with the CF rod. And it sounds fantasatic. If I have a choice I would go with KTS. Heck they have been around for about 25 years and specialize in it. They could not have been around this long in the industry if they made suck at what they do.
Product Users｜KTS Musical Products inc.
Not all CF rods are made equally. There isn't much data on the type of CF in the guitar industry other than that some of the better ones are airplane quality. As to KTS rods, it's a KTS and proven. I am sure if you dug around, you would find something better but it's like a Toyota. Why bother with anything else, if you're looking for reliability and it works.
The only thing that comes to mind that is way better than the KTS rod is the Tokiwa Guardian lattice. But you'll be paying 5-6000 USD for their bass and that lattice is not for sale to other makers due to the high cost and propreitary incorporation method. Their neck stability is better than anything I have ever bought. It's on another godly level. Nothing on the market can compete with this thing on response, stability, sustain, deadspots, etc etc etc. It's like comparing a caveman club to a light sabre. All that said, KTS would be my choice.
Doesnt mean much because my Jerzy has none of the above and is as stable as ones with the CF rod. And it sounds fantasatic. If I have a choice I would go with KTS. Heck they have been around for about 25 years and specialize in it. They could not have been around this long in the industry if they made suck at what they do.
Product Users｜KTS Musical Products inc.
Not all CF rods are made equally. There isn't much data on the type of CF in the guitar industry other than that some of the better ones are airplane quality. As to KTS rods, it's a KTS and proven. I am sure if you dug around, you would find something better but it's like a Toyota. Why bother with anything else, if you're looking for reliability and it works.
The only thing that comes to mind that is way better than the KTS rod is the Tokiwa Guardian lattice. But you'll be paying 5-6000 USD for their bass and that lattice is not for sale to other makers due to the high cost and propreitary incorporation method. Their neck stability is better than anything I have ever bought. It's on another godly level. Nothing on the market can compete with this thing on response, stability, sustain, deadspots, etc etc etc. It's like comparing a caveman club to a light sabre. All that said, KTS would be my choice.
I don't know what graphite reinforcement would do to a neck, but a full graphite neck is extremely stable and has a ton of sustain. You would think that either one would add stability and stiffness to any neck. Tonally, would it make a difference? Hard to say. My question would be if titanium changes with temperature. I know my graphite neck is not affected by temp at all.
