Ground Coupling Learning Experience.

[alanolynn]

Which amp are you using?

A cute little TCE BQ500. The 210's in question are just Seismic Audio's, so nothing special. They fit the budget, and I wanted a warranty, so that's what I was able to come up with. The 112 was a Hartke 112B. And then the pre-existing 410 was a Fender BXR 410H.

All-in-all, this stuff is all incredibly inexpensive, so I don't expect to get top of the line performance. I'm just enjoying the experimentation process.

 

[BogeyBass]

With a guitar and drumkit blasting away on a stage or practice. Things could change.

In a larger room or stage the vertical arrangement could help monitoring by bringing the cab to ear level.

This doesn't change the efficiency of the speakers. They are what they are.
Just easier to hear mid tones in a loud mix.

Having more area coupled to the floor probably made the bass seem deeper.

On stages or risers sometimes laying cabinets on their sides sounded better somewhat. But on others the extra tone or boom can be annoying.

Not sure what cabinets we are talking about. And if they are matching drivers/ cabinets.

 

[BogeyBass]

I don’t always couple, but when I do couple, I do it with authority and power.
View attachment 3336022

Edit: And blatant disregard for mismatching drivers, regardless of what anyone on TB has to say about it. (Besides, I cant hear you over the sound of how awesomely loud I am; what was that again, sonny?)

That's alot of cabbage

How on Earth does a Mesa 400 even run that many cabinets

 

[alanolynn]

This is the cab setup. All matching, and yes I know they're cheap. The BXR head still exists, but I like the compression and eq of the TC head.

 

[alanolynn]

I'm more than eager to find out how these act in a live setting with an open room. More than likely, not very well, but I'm sure they'll work for what I need.

 

[Razman]

That's alot of cabbage

How on Earth does a Mesa 400 even run that many cabinets

It will run all four Hartke's with aplomb using a series box I created to match the impedance to an acceptable level that the 400 supports. The Mesa replaced an Ampeg SVT6Pro that bit the dust due to bad generator power one day at a live event. The Mesa/Ampeg fridge rig was mine until my church bought it from me (to replace the Ampeg) so I combined them all together. What you don't see is a power amp that took over powering the Hartke cabs, and I ran a power cable down to the Ampeg fridge on the bottom. It's a glorious pants-flapper for sure!

For our next show I just have the top two 410's wired to the Mesa - it reduces our stage volume, allows me to hear myself clearly (even with earplugs - that are always worn) and since our stage is elevated, it keeps the sound over the crowd so the FOH can do more work (i.e. more control over house sound/volume). The guitarist's full stacks are just running the top cabs for the same reason; our show this Saturday will be the first time we've played like this and so far, so good.

I'm more than eager to find out how these act in a live setting with an open room. More than likely, not very well, but I'm sure they'll work for what I need.

Sorry to hijack your thread, OP. I too have wanted to assemble a vert-410 rig until I got my Bassman 400 combo - it's all I need for anything less than the Mesa/Fridge combo (and it belongs solely to me).

However, some time ago I played a janky rig that I assembled from a Sonic 210 cab (sealed), a Hartke 1400 amp, and a Hartke 12" Kickback, all stacked vertically. This was done in a much smaller room (1800'?) and wound up using this for to different shows.

It really worked quite well - in one room I had the stack pushed back into a corner and it was incredibly boomy - I pulled it out about two feet and that was a great improvement as it sounded good on stage and in the room (had some help from a small PA). I agree with other's statements that you do what sounds best in the room, whether flat on the ground or stacked.

But I'm 6'5" tall, and that's why I sold my Mesa M6 Carbine combo - it fired too much sound at my knees, so I don't know how you can hear your rig if it's flat on the floor. Let us know how it goes for you.

Raz

 

[Razman]

A cute little TCE BQ500. The 210's in question are just Seismic Audio's, so nothing special. They fit the budget, and I wanted a warranty, so that's what I was able to come up with. The 112 was a Hartke 112B. And then the pre-existing 410 was a Fender BXR 410H.

All-in-all, this stuff is all incredibly inexpensive, so I don't expect to get top of the line performance. I'm just enjoying the experimentation process.

I had a Seismic 210 that I got in a trade a few years ago and it wasn't that bad of a cab! As T.B. says, if it sounds good, it is good, so go with it!

BTW, the main bass I'm using for my next show is my Douglas sixer that I paid $80 for (and I'll not part with it). It is clear, clean & mean, sounds and plays like something costing 10 times as much.

 

[Slevage]

If it sounds good— it is good.

All the technical analysis and specifications (though good to consider)
don’t govern what works when put into practice.

 

[Wasnex]

So, I decided to go with (2) 2x10 cabs to stack vertically for my current rig instead of my small single 12. Nothing special, but nothing to scoff at either.

My reason for choosing this setup was concluded after much research on TB as well as the rest of the interwebs. The main consensus was that the vertical stack will get more sound closer to your ear without being as loud, therefor making your rig more efficient. At least that's what I gathered.

Sadly, after much tweaking and un-tweaking, I found that I just didn't feel I was gaining any efficiency with the setup. I really wasn't enjoying my sound at all. Kind of thin? So on a whim, I put BOTH vertical cabs on the floor next to each other, and turned the amp back on. BOOM! Coupling for the win! Without any adjustments to the head, everything boosted to the point of having to back off my master volume. So my conclusion is that as long as you have the excess power to drive the cabs in a linear configuration, then you're good. In my case, I have limited wattage, so I guess that's why the coupling works better for me?

Feel free to set me straight. I just felt like sharing my experience with you folks.

Ultimately it depends upon what you want to hear. I don't need a lot of low end and like to hear the mids and highs clearly. I gigged for years with a single Eden D210XLT elevated and tilted back to aim the sound at my ears and driven with about 250W. Part of the reason I like this approach is it lets me turn down, so my stage sound doesn't fight with the PA. Obviously my setup would not work for you.

When I do a gig without PA support, I might put the cab on the floor if more low end is desired. I say might, because if the room is boomy, I still tend to prefer the cab elevated.

Basically you have to experiment and figure out what works for you. I also suggest you consider how your stage sound impacts other band members and the house mix as well. Many players only worry about trying to get what they want, and if you have a band full of people with this attitude no one wins.

 

[alanolynn]

Basically you have to experiment and figure out what works for you. I also suggest you consider how your stage sound impacts other band members and the house mix as well. Many players only worry about trying to get what they want, and if you have a band full of people with this attitude no one wins

+1

I 100% endorse this. Being a drummer as well, I sometimes get overrun with everyone else's noisemakers and get left in the back dealing with it while not being able to even hear my own kick. The struggle is real.

 

[seamonkey]

Somebody else might just the opposite as in stacking cabs that they normally sit side by side and end up liking it.
It might be just a change makes a difference. The tone of what you hear is in the mids, so changing that makes a difference.

No matter what your woes, coupling, decoupling, isolation, somebody will be along to sell you a product

 

[alanolynn]

Snake oil for the win!

 

[micguy]

Vertical stacking would be a real benefit if the stack was tall enough - you'd really like to get the line to go to ear level or above, so you're hearing the array on axis. If you do that, off axis, people will generally hear you OK, though the high end drops off off axis. Two 210 cabinets aren't tall enough (unless you're REALLY short) to do that, however. If you arrange them the compete opposite - all 4 drivers along the floor in a line, and then....tilt both cabinets so the drivers are pointed towards your ears, so long as you stand in front of the thing, you'll hear yourself well. Other people in the band, off to the side, not so much. That might work well in some situations, but crappy in others.

 

[Pulverizor]

Describing the sound as 'thin' when stacked kinda implies a polarity issue, maybe double check the cabs aren't fighting each other?

 

[edro]

The question would be whether is sounds thin, to you and/or out front.
Some have no real clue how it sounds out front.
They set it where it is punch munky where 'they' are standing but out front the bass cabs have low end bloomed to the point of obnoxious thermonuclear bottom... It's always a battle because the room changes with people, where you rig is on stage, how high the stage, what it sits on, what is above it and how high, and what's around it...

Is the priority how it sounds out front and fits in the total picture, or to you on stage? Or both? Rhetorical....
It's generally not going to sound the same for both... You might be lucky if you have a deep stage and get the rig farther behind you...most are not...

Always a good idea to walk out front if wireless or long cabled, if you don't have a slider munky to help you balance the two... There are usually always floors to pipe some signal through for definition so you can hear your bass better instead of cranking till the bar glasses dance... Running some bass through the floors makes it easier for everybody else to hear you other than them hearing some perimeter radiation as freqs become more directional as F goes up... Your rig can actually be lower dBs but you can hear much better...along with others on stage... Doesn't take a lot with multiple floors (monitors)...

 

[pappabass]

Cool! I have always said that bass jives with the floor. Good and bad. The little joint we play at I have to put a 2x4 under the front of the amp to break the coupling with the floor. If not it makes a p bass sound muddier than ever!

 

[gitfiddl]

A cute little TCE BQ500. The 210's in question are just Seismic Audio's, so nothing special. They fit the budget, and I wanted a warranty, so that's what I was able to come up with. The 112 was a Hartke 112B. And then the pre-existing 410 was a Fender BXR 410H.

All-in-all, this stuff is all incredibly inexpensive, so I don't expect to get top of the line performance. I'm just enjoying the experimentation process.

For their price point, Seismic stuff isn't complete garbage, as some might have you believe. I gigged the stink out of some of their PA cabs, and them sold them to some kids who last I heard were still using them. And I'm still using a couple or their 15" raw speakers I bought like 15 years ago.

 

[PaulCISSA]

I don’t always couple, but when I do couple, I do it with authority and power.
View attachment 3336022

Edit: And blatant disregard for mismatching drivers, regardless of what anyone on TB has to say about it. (Besides, I cant hear you over the sound of how awesomely loud I am; what was that again, sonny?)

I just ruptured a disk at L3 looking at your post. That’ll keep you in shape loading in/out.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Title would be a great band name for something akin to the Alan Parsons Project

 

[HolmeBass]

There's no loss of coupling in the upper cab when stacked, because all the drivers will mutually couple, meaning they act like one driver, in the lows in both cases. They don't act like one driver in the shorter midrange wavelengths, but those don't get floor coupling either. If you get far enough away you can't tell the difference in the mids, at least not on-axis. Off-axis is where you'd hear a difference.
No difference. Boundary reinforcement is an acoustical effect, not mechanical.

You made the most important point and completely missed it at the same time.

The difference between the two configurations was not the acoustic boundary reinforcement, but the mechanical coupling with the stage.