Yeah, I saw Nirvana performing "More Than A Feeling" and they got away with it (probably because they were Nirvana), but it got the idea across, and force of personality meant nobody was complaining that a three-piece weren't covering all the parts correctly.
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Guitar Doubling Live
- Thread starter Runnerman
- Start date
Yeah, I saw Nirvana performing "More Than A Feeling" and they got away with it (probably because they were Nirvana), but it got the idea across, and force of personality meant nobody was complaining that a three-piece weren't covering all the parts correctly.
Some good suggestions already, but I'll chime in since I've been chasing this sound for a while. What I think is really essential is parallel processing, so you can make the secondary signal sound unique from your primary bass tone. As someone mentioned, putting each signal through a dedicated bass and guitar amp would be ideal, but carrying that much gear may not be ideal. If your bass amp outputs a sound close to full range (a fair amount of high end) you should be good. I have a GK combo and it does very well at this. You just need a way to recombine the signals after splitting and processing. I've had success with Saturnworks mixer pedals (active with bass mod) for this.
For that secondary, "fake guitar" signal, you'll likely want a pitch shifter, distortion/fuzz/OD of some sort (smooths out the chirpiness of the pitch shifting), EQ of some sort (cab sim maybe), and maybe a touch of reverb. Others have mentioned using an 8 or 12 string bass. I've tried both and they mostly just sound like adding a chorus effect. Using distortion helps but that doesn't really separate the signals and trick the ear into hearing distinct instruments. However, using one in combination with a split, pitch shifted signal creates a huge sound but not completely necessary.
I have two pedalboards that I use for this. The first one I built is big, expensive, and daunting to take anywhere, even for jam sessions. The routing is a bit insane. It's full digital and midi controlled and also does a million other things. That one stays in my home studio now. I also built a smaller, hybrid analog/digital board for playing live and that has a parallel blender/mixer pedal, a pitch shifter/fuzz pedal, a digital multi-effects pedal, and a harmonic booster (EQ) pedal at the end. I can do more with the big board, but the smaller board gets me where I need to be. With either though, I have to be mindful of the phase relationship of the signals so I don't lose my tone.
Not gonna lie, it's a bit of sandbox (or quicksand) to play in, which can be very entertaining, but it can also be time and money consuming. I went through a variety of pedals and configurations before I settled on the boards I have now. I wanted to accomplish what Mike Kerr does but with a smaller footprint and not sounding exactly like Royal Blood.
For that secondary, "fake guitar" signal, you'll likely want a pitch shifter, distortion/fuzz/OD of some sort (smooths out the chirpiness of the pitch shifting), EQ of some sort (cab sim maybe), and maybe a touch of reverb. Others have mentioned using an 8 or 12 string bass. I've tried both and they mostly just sound like adding a chorus effect. Using distortion helps but that doesn't really separate the signals and trick the ear into hearing distinct instruments. However, using one in combination with a split, pitch shifted signal creates a huge sound but not completely necessary.
I have two pedalboards that I use for this. The first one I built is big, expensive, and daunting to take anywhere, even for jam sessions. The routing is a bit insane. It's full digital and midi controlled and also does a million other things. That one stays in my home studio now. I also built a smaller, hybrid analog/digital board for playing live and that has a parallel blender/mixer pedal, a pitch shifter/fuzz pedal, a digital multi-effects pedal, and a harmonic booster (EQ) pedal at the end. I can do more with the big board, but the smaller board gets me where I need to be. With either though, I have to be mindful of the phase relationship of the signals so I don't lose my tone.
Not gonna lie, it's a bit of sandbox (or quicksand) to play in, which can be very entertaining, but it can also be time and money consuming. I went through a variety of pedals and configurations before I settled on the boards I have now. I wanted to accomplish what Mike Kerr does but with a smaller footprint and not sounding exactly like Royal Blood.
8 or 12 string bass won't work. More Than A Feelin is a great example to use, the verses have a beautiful rather melodic bass line and so does the ending of the first two choruses and no guitar follows it, the chime of octave strings would sound terrible.
The Micro POG has dual outs for clean and effect; you can run that side to a Whammy set to your needed interval and whatever dirt pedals you need, and the biggest difference is running that signal to a separate amp...doesn't need to be a big amp. Put either a volume or tuner pedal to mute that signal.
I toyed with that alot in my former band.
The Micro POG has dual outs for clean and effect; you can run that side to a Whammy set to your needed interval and whatever dirt pedals you need, and the biggest difference is running that signal to a separate amp...doesn't need to be a big amp. Put either a volume or tuner pedal to mute that signal.
I toyed with that alot in my former band.
Yep, rearrange for 3 piece. I just listened to the solo section. I'd replace the fun bass line with a less fun simple 2 note double stop version of the rhythm guitar part. Octaves for 5ths higher up the neck. Create a reliable frame for the solo. Copying the original bass line verbatim is less practical in your situation.
I was reading this thread waiting for the HX Stomp version — thanks!
Are you summing both signals in the patch prior to output or are they going to separate outputs?
My vote is for option number 2, (aka the FUN option : ) and to pick up a bass vi. Vintage Gibson? Working on all of that myself with a rig incorporating the general realm of this thread based upon the pedalboard in this YouTube video, the samples sound awesome thru my amps/cabs : )
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So Anyway, no advice for the OP on how to accomplish his goal.
I also play in a trio. We recognize there'll be some space when we play songs from bigger bands.
Sometimes we don't even try to copy the signature riff of the song.
We just try to sound like us. And have fun. And get paid. And hopefully get invited back.
I also play in a trio. We recognize there'll be some space when we play songs from bigger bands.
Sometimes we don't even try to copy the signature riff of the song.
We just try to sound like us. And have fun. And get paid. And hopefully get invited back.
I am in the same boat as you. In the trio format we tackle hits all of the time that had much more instrumentation.So Anyway, no advice for the OP on how to accomplish his goal.
I also play in a trio. We recognize there'll be some space when we play songs from bigger bands.
Sometimes we don't even try to copy the signature riff of the song.
We just try to sound like us. And have fun. And get paid. And hopefully get invited back.
If you can create your own version of a song and folks like it that's all that matters. (In fact bands do it all of the time)
T Scholz admitted MTAF was lifted from Walk Away Renee ....
devnulljp
Supporting Member
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Remember, there's a big difference between working hard to come up with a good new arrangement and half@$$ing a complex song.
Summing. Totally possible to separate them though.
If using the looper can work and it’s just an issue of too much going on for him why not have someone else activate it when needed?
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
So much for live music - a non-musician activating a pedal...
Yeah I absolutely don’t care in the least. It’s an effects pedal. If you want to get granular on stuff like that we absolutely can. When I thought of my response I initially meant for him to do it for his bandmate. Upon further reflection I don’t care if Ronald McDonald and the Hamburgler did it from the land of Oz. Gimmie a break.
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buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
My point is this is live music. The drummer can't do it, the guitarist is busy trying to cover more of the three + guitar parts on that song. To me if the musicians cant do it, don' do it . Thats just not a tune for a trio.
I actually did that song with one band. We had two ace guitarists who had digital modeling pedalboards, a lead singer who could hit all the notes, and three excellent backups singers in the band. Not easy
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So you don't think there should be a FOH engineer controlling the mix in a dynamic way, engaging spot effects, matching delay times to tempos etc?
You've never seen Dallas running The Edge's effects rack?
You've never watched any of the Premier Guitar Rig Rundown videos, showing exactly what the bass tech is doing whilst some of the big names are performing?
Personally I prefer stripped down bands, with a DIY approach, and a couple of stomp boxes; but I still thoroughly enjoy a big production from the likes of NIN, which is by any metric, still very much live music.
I agree with the trio arrangement advice. When my current band switched to a power trio format, I tried some of those "solutions," like playing with two amps and things like that. But over time, I’ve embraced—and even come to prefer—the sound of the three instruments just as they are.
You could add some distortion, though, to give the bass more body. But I'd not overcomplicate things. Perhaps the guitarist should consider a different arrangement for the guitar if the solo doesn't sound right.
You could add some distortion, though, to give the bass more body. But I'd not overcomplicate things. Perhaps the guitarist should consider a different arrangement for the guitar if the solo doesn't sound right.
Yep, I do exactly this, and yep, I shlep a second amp for the "guitar" signal.
I've done it a couple of different ways, and the picture isn't the current version of the board, but basically, split the signal, either with an EQ/DI that has two outs like the Ampeg SCR-DI here, or a MicroPOG that has a clean and effect out, or something like that. One line is your regular bass signal to the bass amp; the other has an octave-up on it. That line gets a further 5th up from an EHX Pitchfork (in the setup pictured there were two pitchforks because one was the octave and the other was the fifth). An octave-up bass sounds like a weird tinny thing, not like an actual clean guitar, so it's pretty much necessary to add dirt, in this case from a fuzz pedal (I use a Stomp Under Foot Civil War). The thing is to use is subtly and moderately, just to fill in while the guitarist solos. This is not a formula for exquisite tone, just for filling in empty frequencies.
The alternative, as some have said, is to cover it by arrangement. This is an old trio I was in doing Deep Purple's "Hush." Basically the guitarist used a lot of double-stops in his soloing and I stretched out a lot so it didn't feel empty.
I've done it a couple of different ways, and the picture isn't the current version of the board, but basically, split the signal, either with an EQ/DI that has two outs like the Ampeg SCR-DI here, or a MicroPOG that has a clean and effect out, or something like that. One line is your regular bass signal to the bass amp; the other has an octave-up on it. That line gets a further 5th up from an EHX Pitchfork (in the setup pictured there were two pitchforks because one was the octave and the other was the fifth). An octave-up bass sounds like a weird tinny thing, not like an actual clean guitar, so it's pretty much necessary to add dirt, in this case from a fuzz pedal (I use a Stomp Under Foot Civil War). The thing is to use is subtly and moderately, just to fill in while the guitarist solos. This is not a formula for exquisite tone, just for filling in empty frequencies.
The alternative, as some have said, is to cover it by arrangement. This is an old trio I was in doing Deep Purple's "Hush." Basically the guitarist used a lot of double-stops in his soloing and I stretched out a lot so it didn't feel empty.
IF going for the two signals (bass, faux-guitar) approach, I've not seen mentioned yet employing a DOUBLER or tight ie short SLAP-BACK DELAY — in addition to the requisite dirt-masking of the dihgihtahl-ness of the octup-5th-harmoniser signals and other thickener pedalia.
