Guitar players as bass players......

[Polfuste]

There must be millions of guitarists who think they can play the bass. After all, the fretboard is the same, only an octave lower, right.

that was exactly what i was thinking, as a guitard, when i bought my first bass, in order to record some lines on tracks.
Then i had hard rythm hours learning to understand that was another challenge ..

 

[DanielleMuscato]

I've played guitar and bass for way too long. Competent on both, better bass player than guitar in a band situation.

Had a long layoff from playing live (raised my kids), and got back to playing live a few years ago. With a much improved ear and ego in check, I realized that I wasn't as good as a bassist as I thought. Nor as good as a guitarist. Made me dwell on the differences. This is what I came up with:

Real bassists WANT to play bass.
Real bassists are mentally Siamese Twinned with the drummer.
Real bassists honor the kick.
Real bassists listen to the rest of the drums and weave the part around them.
Real bassists listen to the vocal line, and don't stomp on it.
Real bassists know the power of space.
Real bassists know that note length is not fixed.
Real bassists know that their note will usually be perceived as the root, and the harmonic power that has.

Don't know if I'm a real bassist yet, but I'm well on my way. And I realized that I much prefer playing bass to guitar. My guitarist gets the guys playing air guitar. I get the girls dancing. No contest.

Realizing this made me a better guitarist, as well, oddly enough. I've got a similar "real guitarists" list, but this is a bass board.

js

Excellent post, JS.

 

[Bluesbob]

I play bass guitar in 2 bands and guitar in 2 bands. I much prefer being the bass player in a band, usually because I'm a better bass player than any of the guitar players or bass players. Not braggin', and I'm aware of my limitations, but these are bar bands, playing classic rock covers, not world-class acts. Sometimes I switch off and play bass for a set or an entire gig with the bands in which I usually play guitar. The drummer(s) usually tell me how much they enjoy playing with me as a bass player.
I think any competent musician can play guitar reasonably well, but it takes a certain aptitude to play bass. We're born, not made.
I have a test song to tell if a guy can really play bass. It's "One Way Out" by the Allman Bros. I play this with one of the bands I play guitar in, and after lots of practice I get pretty close to capturing the whole guitar sound and feel of the song, even though I'm the only guitar player. So I know I can play the song on guitar. And I also know I can play it on bass, as well as sing the lead vocal while I play the bass line, which is rhythmic and repetitive.
But I have suggested this tune with other bands where I'm the guitar player and a couple of the bass players, usually converted guitarists like me, will start playing the guitar line, even if they started out at the beginning of the tune playing the bass line. I don't think it's because they want to, but something switches off (or on) and they move to the guitar part.
And don't talk to me about playing with bassists with 6-strings. Sometimes I feel like ripping their Roscoes or Warwicks out of their hands, taking off the B and C strings and telling them to go back and learn how to play bass.
But I don't, of course.
Anyway, I don't agree at all with the old maxim about the bass player being the 3rd-best guitarist in a band. Maybe that was true at one time, but today's best bands have to have a bass player who is just as good at what he does as anybody else in the band.
Just like anything else, some people can play bass well, and some people can't. I doesn't matter if they are a guitarist or a hardware store clerk.

 

[jezzamac]

There is this guy i know who used to play guitar but was frustrated with the bass players he used to work with as they were useless so decided to take up bass full time. I saw him play a few months back and my jaw was on the floor! Couldn't believe how amazing he was.

Gifted musicians leave can often play both. They understand the differences as well as similarities between them. I have agood friend who was a talented guitar player but he took up bass and is just as good on that. I'm a hack and am still struggling with bass after XX years (no admissions here). I recently took guitar lessons for a year or so ... hopeless. I think we should take pleasure in the fact there there are people out there whose musical talents enrich our lives. That being said, I do also take pleasure when a guitar player picks up my bass then sheepishly hands it back to me saying something like "I don't know how you can play that thing. It's hard work." (... and personally I find guitar hard work).

PS: One gripe I have is with keyboard players who tell me to play the intersting bass line they have developed which is, invariably, a descending chromatic line (or near enough). Not on every song please.

 

[JimmyM]

Real bassists WANT to play bass.
Real bassists are mentally Siamese Twinned with the drummer.
Real bassists honor the kick.
Real bassists listen to the rest of the drums and weave the part around them.
Real bassists listen to the vocal line, and don't stomp on it.
Real bassists know the power of space.
Real bassists know that note length is not fixed.
Real bassists know that their note will usually be perceived as the root, and the harmonic power that has.

Your list contains a few truths and a few fallacies:

Real bassists WANT to play bass.

False. I can't tell you how many great bassists came from bands where they were forced to be the bassist because nobody else would. McCartney for one.

Real bassists are mentally Siamese Twinned with the drummer.

False. A lot of my favorite bassists plow right through the drummer as much as play with him, and it works extremely well when done right. Jamerson was king of plowing through the drummer. But his grooves were so cool that the drummer usually just tried to stay out of his way and let him work.

Real bassists honor the kick.

False. If there's any honoring going on, the kick needs to honor the bass. But a mutual respect will suffice.

Real bassists listen to the rest of the drums and weave the part around them.

Very false. When it comes to creating parts, the bassist needs to create the dynamic and the drummer should weave his/her part around you. Listening to the drummer and getting an idea from what he/she is doing is always encouraged, but the bassist needs to take the lead in the part-creating dynamic.

Real bassists listen to the vocal line, and don't stomp on it.

True. But that doesn't mean you can't be interesting. It just means tone it down a little and save the more intricate stuff for when it counts.

Real bassists know the power of space.

Very true. Space is what bass is all about. Know when to leave spaces, know when to fill spaces in.

Real bassists know that note length is not fixed.

True, but that kind of goes without saying for every instrument.

Real bassists know that their note will usually be perceived as the root, and the harmonic power that has.

False. It will usually be perceived as the root by unsophisticated musicians. Good ones will know when the bass is playing a different note in the chord's scale.

Let me add one thing:

Real bassists don't refer to themselves as real bassists. They refer to themselves simply as bassists.

And as for the topic, any guitarist can learn how to play bass and any bassist can learn how to play guitar if they work at it.

 

[Figas]

My guitarist gets the guys playing air guitar. I get the girls dancing. No contest.

Can I hear an hallelujah!!

 

[ihateusernames]

just thought of something - a lot of us play in cover bands - am i the only one who just plays the song regardless of what instrument i'm playing? (it's not my interpretation at all, simply playing what i hear) all this talk about working with the kick, not taking up the wrong sonic space - blah.

heck, if anything i carry the drums in our modern rock cover band since i play the parts i hear in recordings.

 

[RustyAxe]

Here's my question.......

Seems like no matter which guitar player picks up the bass, they always seem to approach bass playing with the same approach as playing guitar.....no "rhythm" so to speak and it's difficult to dial in a groove with the drummer so, except for the drums, there's not really a steady, driving bottom to keep things moving along.........is this normal for guitar players? Anybody else experienced this?

There are three guitarists in our acoustic band (including me). I've played solo fingerstyle for 40 years. I've been delegated to be the bass player, cuz I can. I played bass more than 40 years ago, and played for a number of years. I just picked it up again because there was a need. People I admire and respect have given me kudos for my bass playing in many styles (and guitar and vocals). I'd love to hand the bass to one of the other guitarists now and then, because I can do riffs on some songs that they can't do ... but then, the bottom falls out. I hear ya man.

 

[Bluesbob]

I'd love to hand the bass to one of the other guitarists now and then, because I can do riffs on some songs that they can't do ...

That's exactly how I sometimes feel. I need a double neck to use for rehearsals. Then again, that's a good way to make enemies.

 

[Foreman_]

I was a guitard of the worst kind, flashy lead shredding guitard (and I wasn't that good) what I discovered when I decided to learn to play bass was that I had no concept of rhythm what so ever. And after having played bass for a while, and discovering a metronome, I've been able to learn to actually play my instrument while keeping the rhythm down.

 

[Jehos]

And don't talk to me about playing with bassists with 6-strings. Sometimes I feel like ripping their Roscoes or Warwicks out of their hands, taking off the B and C strings and telling them to go back and learn how to play bass.

Now them's fightin' words.

 

[topcat2069]

I'm a little (very little) surprised that nobody has mentioned Jack Cassidy, he was a guitar player first and one of the "innovators" of the Bass as an equal instrument that changed the way Bass was played (along with Phil Lesh(?) and to a degree Tim Bogart)..... It’s not the notes that are played (or how many), its how they sit in the groove that I find the most telling.

 

[MtManiac]

just thought of something - a lot of us play in cover bands - am i the only one who just plays the song regardless of what instrument i'm playing? (it's not my interpretation at all, simply playing what i hear) all this talk about working with the kick, not taking up the wrong sonic space - blah.

heck, if anything i carry the drums in our modern rock cover band since i play the songs exact as recorded.

Ok, so you play the bass part exactly as recorded, but does your drummer, and does your rhythm guitar player and does your singer? And are you sure it is *eaxctly* as recorded? No notes off time by just the tiniest bit from the recording? Really? Because even the original artists do not play their songs live *exactly* as recorded, ever, unless their live shows are 100% sampled. Short of being a robot or a computer, you need to listen to what is going on around you in every performance and play to it.

 

[ihateusernames]

i'm guessing that post wasn't intended to come across as condescending as it does bill?

i play my parts, if the other guys take a nap, improvise a forgotten passage, put their own interpretation into it - i'll be there playing the song when they're ready to hop back on the cover song wagon. (obviously if an impromptu jam breaks out i'll play along) it's hard to believe i'm the only one who follows this philosophy of playing music of others. i know the other guys in our group work really hard to learn the songs as originally performed/recorded, i'd really be letting them down to show up at a gig and play something they haven't heard and aren't prepared for. i really count on our rhythm guitar player and drummer to play what i hear when i'm learning a song, and they deliver most every time.

while you're correct and i agree that no song is ever the same twice, that's a bit more technical than my point was intended to be. perhaps i misunderstood the posts that prompted my thought process with this thread. to clarify, my notes are going to be placed exactly where my bandmates expect them to be, from the source music we all agreed to learn a song from (irregardless of which bass/amp/effect/technique etc.) if they are perfectly fretted, stuck, attenuated, sustained or whathaveyou that's a nice bonus. why should it matter if someone was a guitar player or a flute player before learning bass when you're simply playing someone else's music?

 

[lamarjones]

Your list contains a few truths and a few fallacies:

Real bassists WANT to play bass.

False. I can't tell you how many great bassists came from bands where they were forced to be the bassist because nobody else would. McCartney for one.
.

Why a person gets in the game and what he does once he is there are two different things.

i'm guessing that post wasn't intended to come across as condescending as it does bill?

I'd also agree that retort sounded kooky, if you are in a cover band worth doing, depending on what you are shooting for, you should be trying to hit the sound and ntoes off the albume or a particular live version. Certainly don't have to, but many do and I think many good players can get near identical.

not everything is jazz, meaning I don't feel like I have to make everything i play my own. Sometimes it just sounds better if I go with how everyone has heard the song already.

If you are shooting for copying the original, and you fail, that is a different story. Alternatively, the notion that every cover band is trying to do things JUST LIKE the album isn't right either. some like being close to the mark while making different, which can be fun.

They are both examples of over generazing as far as i can see, but that is what got us here in the first place!!

 

[JimmyM]

Why a person gets in the game and what he does once he is there are two different things.

Bah, he still doesn't want to play bass! He's always switching off to guitar or piano

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

And don't talk to me about playing with bassists with 6-strings. Sometimes I feel like ripping their Roscoes or Warwicks out of their hands, taking off the B and C strings and telling them to go back and learn how to play bass.

If a guy can't handle their B and C strings, it's the player's fault, not the bass. Anthony Jackson has been playing six-strings exclusively for almost thirty years now, and he has very few peers in the bass world.

I don't get into the silly notion of assigning roles based on instrument. No one says "real pianists play this way because it's a ridiculous idea- pianists can play solo, rhythm, lead, noise, anything. I think the same of all instruments. A bassist is a person who plays bass. He can spend all day playing chords on the highest 6 frets and he'll still be a bassist, not a guitarist, just a a guitarist doing the same will still be a guitarist, not a mandolinist.

 

[MtManiac]

i'm guessing that post wasn't intended to come across as condescending as it does bill?

i play my parts, if the other guys take a nap, improvise a forgotten passage, put their own interpretation into it - i'll be there playing the song when they're ready to hop back on the cover song wagon. (obviously if an impromptu jam breaks out i'll play along) it's hard to believe i'm the only one who follows this philosophy of playing music of others. i know the other guys in our group work really hard to learn the songs as originally performed/recorded, i'd really be letting them down to show up at a gig and play something they haven't heard and aren't prepared for. i really count on our rhythm guitar player and drummer to play what i hear when i'm learning a song, and they deliver most every time.

while you're correct and i agree that no song is ever the same twice, that's a bit more technical than my point was intended to be. perhaps i misunderstood the posts that prompted my thought process with this thread. to clarify, my notes are going to be placed exactly where my bandmates expect them to be, from the source music we all agreed to learn a song from (irregardless of which bass/amp/effect/technique etc.) if they are perfectly fretted, stuck, attenuated, sustained or whathaveyou that's a nice bonus. why should it matter if someone was a guitar player or a flute player before learning bass when you're simply playing someone else's music?

Sorry, I got off on the wrong foot, you're right I totally did not mean to come across as condescending, especially after reading your last post. I play in a cover band too, and we encourage each other to learn the "correct" parts as recorded, but there are still nuances that differ from player to player, such as how my drummer approaches chord changes or section changes versus how the drummer on so-and-so's song does it. Or how my acoustic guitar player sometimes plays with the rhythms a little from the original, to play off what I am doing or what the drummer is doing, or to just have some fun being creative and working the crowd. All of this affects note choice, note length, etc. and doing it well absolutely involves listening to each other. The way I read your post was that you believed you were playing things exactly as recorded, with respect to note length, etc. and I thought I read your post as being dismissive of the idea of listening to the drummer.

 

[Stompin Tom]

This is actually something I've thought a lot about. I've switched between guitar and bass for a long time now, but I always focus on one or the other. Whichever one I'm focusing on, I'm naturally playing better. Like one of the first posters, I have a hard time switching my brain back and forth without an adjustment period playing with a band for about a month. I can do a reasonable job until I find my groove (so to speak), but I'm certainly not at the top of my game.

Add to this the two guitarists in my current (non-cover) band who both, in a strange way, fancy themselves bassists. Inevitably at some point when we're putting a song together they try to write a bass part (usually for an intro/outro or middle 8) and want me to play it exactly as they are. You know what, there's usually something sort of intangibly wrong with what they've written. Sure, I can take their idea and make it work, but there's just something missing. This is uber frustrating for me because I'm actually a pretty good guitarist. I could write pretty good guitar parts for them, but I don't because I want them to write parts that feel right to them. Somehow I have a hard time communicating this with them.

 

[js1]

Your list contains a few truths and a few fallacies:

Point - Counterpoint

I don't think that we're that far apart. Should have put "IMO" around this. Of course, your true/false would then be agree/disagree...

My list is directed to the OP - referring to the guitarist (actually, anyone) that picks up the bass and think that they know everything because the bass is "easy".

Anyways, I'll clarify my points, then leave it alone.

Real bassists WANT to play bass.

False. I can't tell you how many great bassists came from bands where they were forced to be the bassist because nobody else would. McCartney for one.

Originally forced. That's me. Stick with it, get better - because you want to. McCartney could have been the guitarist for Wings. But, he chose to be the bassist.

Real bassists are mentally Siamese Twinned with the drummer.

False. A lot of my favorite bassists plow right through the drummer as much as play with him, and it works extremely well when done right. Jamerson was king of plowing through the drummer. But his grooves were so cool that the drummer usually just tried to stay out of his way and let him work.

Saying that Benny Benjamin merely "stayed out of the way" of James Jamerson? Post that in a drummer forum...

IMO (see, I'll use that), they were sharing a brain and a bloodstream.

A good rhythm section LISTEN to each other, feed off of each other. One gets busy, the other lays back. Share accents. Build a groove thats better than the sum of the two individual parts.

Real bassists honor the kick.

False. If there's any honoring going on, the kick needs to honor the bass. But a mutual respect will suffice.

I'll buy the mutual respect. However, the single biggest groove killer that I see in bands is kick part not lining up with the bass part. As a bassist, I'll flag the drummer, and point this out, and one of us will change what we're doing. If I didn't think this was important, I wouldn't bother.

Real bassists listen to the rest of the drums and weave the part around them.

Very false. When it comes to creating parts, the bassist needs to create the dynamic and the drummer should weave his/her part around you. Listening to the drummer and getting an idea from what he/she is doing is always encouraged, but the bassist needs to take the lead in the part-creating dynamic.

Don't agree - I'll meet you at mutual. But, a good example of the weaving would be the bass part to Parliaments "Give Up The Funk (Tear the Roof off the Sucker). The drum part is fairly straight in the verse. Bootsy's bass line is just sick.

Now days, there's a lot of music based on drum loops, either in the foreground, or the background. That part isn't going to change. You're going to do the weaving.

Real bassists listen to the vocal line, and don't stomp on it.

True. But that doesn't mean you can't be interesting. It just means tone it down a little and save the more intricate stuff for when it counts.

Of course! You can go further than that, and at appropriate times, use the bass part to double, harmonize, and counterpoint the vocal.

Real bassists know that note length is not fixed.

True, but that kind of goes without saying for every instrument.

I think that it's actually more important in bass than, say, guitar. Damping with the fretting hand, muting with the plucking hand is key to technique. Funk guitarists practice these disciplines. In a lot of guitar playing, the note ends when the pick hits the string again.

Real bassists know that their note will usually be perceived as the root, and the harmonic power that has.

False. It will usually be perceived as the root by unsophisticated musicians. Good ones will know when the bass is playing a different note in the chord's scale.

Don't agree. The average listener (and the dancer) will hear it as a different chord. And when transcribed, in tab you'll see things like C/G bass. In other cases, the chord with the different bass note will be transcribed as if the bass note IS the root. I've run into many guitarists that haven't figured out that it's only the bass note that's different, not the chord.

However, my point really is that a bass can add a lot of harmonic interest by interesting note selection.

Let me add one thing:

Real bassists don't refer to themselves as real bassists. They refer to themselves simply as bassists.

Yeah, I agree. I don't go around calling myself a "Real Bassist". I call myself a bassist, and I say that I play guitar.

Bass is not simply a guitar tuned an octave down. Technique and its musical roll are much different. It's easy to play something, difficult to master. Players wearing a bass that view the bass as simple and boring are rarely bassists, in my book.

Of course a guitar player can be a good bassist. Or a good french horn player. Or a race car driver. If they respect the differences and are willing to work.

Anyways, JimmyM, thanks for your thoughtful response.

js