Double Bass Gut Strings: Are They Worth It To Try? (part I)

[Mark Perna]

I'm gutless for about a month and a half. Left the bass in New York and doing some travelling. Played on a Christopher bass strung with Helicores for a couple gigs in Beijing and it killed me. Just didn't sound right. I don't know what the bass in LA is going to be strung with, Andy Allen's kind of crazy about strings as well. I miss my bass. :[

I wondered where you went. We haven't heard from you for a while. When are you back in NY?

mark

 

[MR PC]

Someone should try burying Spiros underground for a few weeks...

Done. Why not, nobody will be hurt with this little experiment. Plenty of old Spiro's around here. Ends protruding above ground of course. Maybe a bucket with a saline solution would be better.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

You did take them off the bass first, right?

 

[AndreasH]

It was on the double bass section of the old AOL jazz message boards which were not unlike TB. A bunch of us would try to convince him that amps were necessary to be heard and his comment to us was something like "Ray Brown and Ron Carter couldn't convince me to use an amp, why do you think YOU guys will?" Most of us on the board at that time couldn't conceive of anyone NOT using an amp. Remember this was the mid-90's. This idea of never using an amp was pretty radical. We made our arguments to Ben and he made his back. It was because of his influence from those boards that I 1) tried gut strings for the first time (in 1999 or so for about 2 weeks) and also started to occasionally give up the amp. Obviously, I never totally gave up the amp.

We had some fun conversations. Just like here, I met a lot of great people on there. The biggest difference between the AOL boards and TB is more than bassists posted. It was just as likely that a guitarist or a composer or a drummer as a bassist would chime in even on matters pertaining to bass. Jason Marsalis used to post there quite a bit and it was great getting a drummer's perspective, particularly one as great as he is, on matters of bass.

mark

It would sure be great to hear some strong arguments against amp usage. My best one so far is like "amps sounds like crap to me"

Jasom Marsalis recently had a clinic at my school. Really interesting dude. Great drummer.

 

[MR PC]

You did take them off the bass first, right?

Yes.

And checking out my stash of used/old Spiro's (going back 30+ years), it's interesting to notice how much the gauging has varied in that time.

 

[davidAaronCarte]

Done. Why not, nobody will be hurt with this little experiment. Plenty of old Spiro's around here. Ends protruding above ground of course. Maybe a bucket with a saline solution would be better.

Try it with a newish pair, I'd be interested to see if it takes some of that fresh Spiro edge off

 

[MR PC]

Nahh, I think they need to be played for at least a few months to stretch....this experiment will be to see how they sound after the wound core starts to corrode.

Somebody mentioned frayed gut strings contributing to Paul Chambers buzzy sound......so what will decomposing alloy sound like then?

On the subject the worthiness of gut strings, all I can say is I love the sound of gut strings under able hands! (FI, Israel Crosby)

 

[MT Spaces]

Back To The Birth Of This Damn Deal .... "Gut Strings: Are They Worth It To Try?"
Nope ... They Suck .... I Really Hate My Pistoys . I will never play them again after they die in the next 15 or 20 years ... Especially since I think I will Croak before the Gamuts do !

FYI .... Woof ... Here is SomeThing Y'All may not necessarily want to delve into .. Or Already Have (and are trying to forget) ...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549419

My "new" bass I just got-back from Jake .... Pistoys G & D ... Animas A & E .... Great Rack ... I still Suck but I'm tryin' ....

 

[Kevin Hsieh]

I wondered where you went. We haven't heard from you for a while. When are you back in NY?

mark

I'll be back in July. Just getting some stuff together back in LA and collecting myself before heading back in for another round. Have some thinking to do. It's weird to go back to steel. Those Evah Weichs do sound mighty interesting though... 2nd bass...

 

[Mark Perna]

I bought a set of the EP Weichs that I originally intended to put on my steel bass. They're sitting on my string shelf for the moment. I'm so committed to gut at this point that I think I'm going to convert my steel string bass which is the better bass to gut and then maybe put the Weichs on the current gut bass. Or I might just leave the gut on both basses and maybe put a non-gut E and A like Garbos or the Weich E and A on the current gut bass for use when the weather is extreme enough so that I'd want something more stable. So far, out of all of the gigs I've done, I've had 2 where the conditions were extreme enough that the bass got a little squirrelly on me. 99% of the time, all gut is just fine.

I had a gig last night and it struck me that I'm totally in the gut world now. I've developed enough tools with gut that I no longer think about what I could have done if I had steel. Steel is kind of a distant memory. When someone really learns a foreign language, they start to think in that language. I think in "gut" now. It's really great.

mark

 

[Mark Perna]

I occasionally add a little AMT mic into my amplified sound. The AMT has kind of a thin sound that directly into a Focus adds some air to the sound but I don't think is really usable by itself. Or was. I have the Schertler pre-amp that goes with the Dyn-B. I ran the AMT through it and it fattens that sound right up. Amazing. I imagine I'd get a similar result with any good pre amp though but I have the Schertler so I may as well use it.

I also found a new place to position the mic. I was running it up between the bridge legs and pointing it at the table a couple of millimeters above the table. I thought that maybe getting a little more string sound and a little less body sound would give me a more defined tone. Gut is really thick to begin with and it is easy to lose definition. I wrapped the mic around the bridge and pointed it between the G and D string just above the bridge so the condenser is literally between the G and D string. Amazing sound!

So I worked on this set up all afternoon yesterday, ok? I have two of AMT preamps (I have the tailpiece mounted version on my gut bass and a side mounted version on my steel string bass and each came with a preamp) and instead of unpacking my gig gear, I just used the one I had in the practice room to work on this new sound. I go to the gig planning on unveiling this great new amplified sound but I forgot one thing...

So here is how dumb I really am: I don't have any batteries in my gig AMT pre amp. I use the phantom power off of the Focus. The AMT pre in my practice room had batteries in it. I get to the gig and I get nothing out of the mic. It took me a couple of minutes to figure out that if I run the AMT pre into the Schertler Pre (which is, along with the great new mic position, the key to the great sound), I no longer have access to phantom power. I'm screwed. It all worked great this afternoon because I had battery power for the AMT in my practice room.

I plugged in my Stat-B and I still ran the AMT directly into the Focus but didn't sound as good and I only mixed a little into the Stat sound. I was a little bummed but the gig went extremely well. Everyone played great. I've already put batteries in the gig pre and I'll get to gig test the new setup on Saturday and on Sunday this week. We'll see if it is as good on the gig as it was in my practice room.

mark

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I had a duo gig with a guitar last night so I left the amp in the car. We were in an office building in the hallway on the second story, kind of a loft area. No corner for reinforcement and the entire building is carpeted so it was a dead sound. This was for a reception packed with people just having a good time and the din of conversation never let up.
It was fun to do it without the amp and I had no trouble being heard. People told me they heard the bass clearly all over the approx 3,000 square foot office.
Digging into the gut thing was not a problem at all. The tone was fat and warm; didn't so much cut through as lay underneath.

Later, I dropped into a trio gig and sat in on a Pollman I had played several times through a nice amp. It was actually a lot more work!

The old school setup has a lot going for it. Gonna try the gut bass tonite with a loud big band. I will take the amp.

 

[AndreasH]

Later, I dropped into a trio gig and sat in on a Pollman I had played several times through a nice amp. It was actually a lot more work!

The old school setup has a lot going for it. Gonna try the gut bass tonite with a loud big band. I will take the amp.

Once I got used to it, I couldn't really imagine myself going back to steel or high tension steel-ish synthetics. It's really alot of work and it isn't really the sound I hear in my head so...

I've had my Artone wrapped A on for a week or so now and it sounds fantastic! More definition than I remembered from last time, HUGE fundamental and just about enough sustain for me. That made me think of a wrapped gut E aswell. As my Artone E is dead, I started to look around, and found a Chorda E/A which I'm buying from a friendly TB'er. I'll probably have it on in about a week or so. I think I'm stuck in gut hell now

 

[Eric Hochberg]

It took me a couple of minutes to figure out that if I run the AMT pre into the Schertler Pre (which is, along with the great new mic position, the key to the great sound), I no longer have access to phantom power.
mark

The Schertler Pre A-II does have phantom power option at the input (12V) to run a Stat-B, don't know if it will work with the AMT. One of the little buttons on the side turns it on and off. Schertler's site has the manuals with tech specs.

 

[Mark Perna]

The Schertler pre does have phantom power to run a Stat-B, don't know if it will work with the AMT. One of the little buttons on the side turns it on and off.

No kidding!! That's fantastic! I've only messed around with the Dyn-B a little and really didn't spend a whole lot of time working with it's pre. And what I did mess with was trying to get the gain staging to an acceptable level (that thing runs HOT). In the dark at the gig, there was no way I was going to find that button but now that I know it is there, I'm golden.

I already put a fresh battery in the AMT so I'm good either way but if I don't have to worry about batteries in the future, I'm a happy guy.

I will report back after tonight's gig if the new mic/pre setup works on the gig as well as it did in my practice room. If it does, I'll try to post some sound clips.

mark

 

[Mark Perna]

Once I got used to it, I couldn't really imagine myself going back to steel or high tension steel-ish synthetics. It's really alot of work and it isn't really the sound I hear in my head so...

I've had my Artone wrapped A on for a week or so now and it sounds fantastic! More definition than I remembered from last time, HUGE fundamental and just about enough sustain for me. That made me think of a wrapped gut E aswell. As my Artone E is dead, I started to look around, and found a Chorda E/A which I'm buying from a friendly TB'er. I'll probably have it on in about a week or so. I think I'm stuck in gut hell now

Andreas, I am SO totally with you on this one. My playing as gone to another level and I'm completely convinced it is because of the strings. I bought some Garbos (E/A) to deal with the tuning problems I've had with wrapped gut in really hot weather and I haven't put them on yet. I don't want to. I love the sound of the wrapped gut too much. And to be honest, I've only had problems 3 times since March with the wrapped gut. I think I'm just going to deal with the problem the best I can when it comes up and leave the wrapped gut on which works without a problem for the other 97% of the time.

mark

 

[AndreasH]

Andreas, I am SO totally with you on this one. My playing as gone to another level and I'm completely convinced it is because of the strings. I bought some Garbos (E/A) to deal with the tuning problems I've had with wrapped gut in really hot weather and I haven't put them on yet. I don't want to. I love the sound of the wrapped gut too much. And to be honest, I've only had problems 3 times since March with the wrapped gut. I think I'm just going to deal with the problem the best I can when it comes up and leave the wrapped gut on which works without a problem for the other 97% of the time.

mark

My Garbo E is still on. It's an older version which has more of a round copper wire. My friend bought a fresh set of Garbos and the E is totally smooth. I'm not sure I like, well I'm sure my fingerboard does But its surface is a really good match with the totally round Artone windning. But I've had it on for about one and half year now and I've been beating it so hard so I'm just waiting for a breakage... That's another reason I started look for wrapped guts The Garbos are far more stable than wrapped guts but, of course, not as stable as Spiros (but far more gut-like...). But I think I can say it now: There is NOTHING like gut strings, Garbos are the most gut-LIKE, and they're great even if you're not comparing them to guts, but they're sure not even close to guts anyway. If one wants the gut-experience, it simply has to be gut! (IMHO! )

 

[Mark Perna]

In reference to great new mic setup: bleh. I need to spend more time in the lab. I got to the gig way early. Set up and let's just say it didn't sound as good there as it did in the practice room. I ended up using the Stat and a little bit of AMT as usual. I even took the Schertler Pre out of the loop. BTW: I tried the phantom power on the Schertler pre and it is only 10 V DC which I guess is enough to run a Stat-B. I need 48 V to run the AMT so it wouldn't work as a phantom power source.

In other news, I took the G and D Spiros off of my steel string bass which is the '28 Juzek and put a Gamut medium G and light D on it. I left the Mittel A and E on for now. It immediately sounds better than the current gut bass ('74 Juzek) even with the steel E and A. I'm going to let the G and D settle in before doing anything about the A and E. Ultimately (meaning within a couple of days), I'm going to put the Gamut E and A on it. I played it for about 30 minutes tonight, tuning the G and D every 30 seconds or so. The D is amazingly articulate even without being stretched out. It took the D on the other bass a few weeks to get even close to this articulate.

I don't think I'm going to be ready to play this bass at tomorrow's (Sunday's) gig but I'm looking to have it ready for the jam session I plan on hitting on Wednesday.

mark

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Loud big band gig tonite and I survived. The bass felt great and the guys liked the sound I got out of it. The funny thing is that my pizz fingers actually feel better than they did before the gig. Steel? Don't think so.

 

[Kevin Hsieh]

Loud big band gig tonite and I survived. The bass felt great and the guys liked the sound I got out of it. The funny thing is that my pizz fingers actually feel better than they did before the gig. Steel? Don't think so.

I love the way a gut stringed bass sits under a big band. With steel, it's a totally different story. Steel just screams to be in the foreground, while the gut is happy sitting right under and sounds great doing so. I agree with you about endurance with gut as well (i've been out of the loop for a while, but i'll assume that's what you're using). Once your fingers get used to playing on such loose strings, it takes such little effort.

I haven't touched a bass in almost a week, and will be playing on steel for the entirety of my visit with my parents in LA. it's going to be interesting. Can't wait to get back to NY and get the summer post in and play on gut again.