Double Bass Guts and Amplification

[Jay Corwin]

I'm curious to hear what setups guys/gals who run guts are using for amplification. Every demo I ever see for upright rigs is always a steel, or hybrid string - usually playing a modern jazz type of tone (for lack of a better description). It's the exact opposite of what I sound like. I guess it's the same cliche as watching amp demos for slab and the first thing a guy does is play slap for 10 minutes.....but I digress. Are there any gut players out there that care to share their rigs, secrets, etc. when it comes to amplifying?

I've tried several amps, spent a boat load of cash, and finally settled on an amp in my closet that was collecting dust - and Ampeg B100R. My signal chain is Rev Solo > Radial Tonebone PZ deluxe > B100R. I send the pre signal to the PA, but feel I can push the Ampeg without getting a lot of those undesirable effects from upright piezos that seem to plague conventional bass amps. It defies logic with a 15" woofer, and ports - but the thing sounds better than my AI did. For the most part I run the preamp flat, and tweak the EQ on the Ampeg. It does color the tone, but in that B15'ish way which ain't so bad.

The down side of the Ampeg is weight. At 65 pounds, it's a bit of bear for me to move (and I'm not getting any younger). Although it has casters, they don't help you in Buffalo during the winter months when everything is covered in snow. I'm looking next year to try something lighter, and with more power. Originally I was thinking powered speaker, but I'm also intrigued by the Fearless cabs as I see tons of upright players using them on Facebook.

 

[cdavisshannon]

I don't run guts, but innovations, so I'm going for a slmilar tone. I think that the same principles of reproducing youre bass accurately still hold true no matter what the set up. I use a Bass max (it ain't the best, not most natural, but gets the job done easily in most rooms) with the PZ Deluxe to a 10" powered PA speaker. Most people think of this as a small rig, but I have used this for eveyrthing from combo gigs to large theater stages in 500 person rooms (obviously as a stage monitor) playing anywhere from bebop to fairly bombastic rockabilly.

 

[neddyrow]

hello sir!

not to creep you out, but i have been keeping an eye on you. we live near each other, play similar music and have had similar setups through the years. currently, i am playing wrapped gut (Lenzner E & A / Red-O-Ray D & G) but have played plain guts in the past for many years. so... i'll give you my $.02 since i'm not the metal strings guy playing jazz response that doesn't help much.

the setup i use now, which is pretty much perfect for me and my needs with little worry of feedback is: upton plywood - bassmax - AI ten2 - Ampeg 210AV or EA NL210

i've used lots of stuff and, like you, dropped a lot of cash on stuff that doesn't give me the sound i want. for example with the stuff you use - i tried the radial and didn't like the "color" it gave my bass. also, i've played through 15" cabs and they were too boomy for me. i also don't like the 8's or 6" or 4x5"s stuff as it has too much higher ends.

i love the 2x10" cabs - they hit the full spectrum for me which is good for the different places we play and i have to dial out some of the highs at one show and the lows at the next. they also have a good punch for us guys holding down the beat.

i used to play an AI focus SA, the one with only a volume knob, and an fdeck with great success. i like flat settings but with a little bit of adjustment for feedback that the fdeck gave me. i still have that setup if you want to borrow it sometime.

i went for it and got the AI ten2 recently and love it. i was worried about all the extra stuff that i don't need but i just set it flat and ignore it. loving the sound! even was able to take the fdeck out of the chain, which i never thought i would do. it is nice that the ten2 has 2 channels as we sometimes put the guitar through it. maybe you got the wrong AI for your needs.

the only part i have little experience with is the rev solo. i have bassmax on both my basses and an extra for backup. it's not super defined like a mic but i could start a whole other thread about my lack of compatibility with mics. the bassmax gives me a good sound without any worry of feedback and the soundguys i work with like it best. you can also borrow that if ever in central new york.

good luck!

 

[sonix]

i play jazz and some classical with the bow. for me the Pirastro Oliv A - G and Chorda Low-E (tuned to D) seem to be the setup I want in terms of tension, sound (pizz/arco) and playability with the bow.

did you guys find any good youtube or soundcloud recording when comparing gut strings? since I am quite happy with my setup I was thinking about sharing it here.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I don't play gut any more, but I did for a long time. I've also made it a point to try most of the low-dollar pickups that are on the market. In no particular order:

I lived with the Bass Max for about a year, mostly on an early Engel strung with plain Clef guts. It was extremely easy to use, but wasn't a natural sound at all. To my ear, it emphasized the low-mids a lot, and reminded me of a P-Bass. Not in a good way. Next...

The Rev Solo was my go-to for some time, and I still have one on my Vertical Bass. It's a fairly natural sound, albeit shy in the lows, but you can compensate for that with a good amp or PA. It's also a fairly hardy unit, but if it gets bumped out of its' "sweet spot" even a hair-s breadth...yuck.

The Vertical Bass came to me with an Underwood installed. I hated it...try as I might, using EQ and impedance matching and only using one of the elements and every other trick I could think of, the dreaded "Underwood quack" just drove me insane. Years later, I bought a used Underwood on Reverb for close to nothing and tossed it on my Solano, because why not? Verdict? I absolutely love it...the quack is there, but minimally, and the depth and power are hard to beat. It's a little reedy playing arco, but that pickup works really well on that particular bass.

I also used the Realist for a number of years. The old Saxon that was my main bass until I bought the Solano has one of those stupid Belgian-style bridges with the claw-like bridge wings which are not friendly to mounting a piezo bridge-wing pickup, so the Realist was really my only choice short of paying $300 for a new bridge. It worked well on that bass, especially arco, but that pickup is not hardy. My toddler destroyed it by yanking on the wire, so I got rid of the Realist I was using as well as the spare I'd picked up.

For one gig, I used an SM-57 mounted on a short mic stand placed just in front of the bass. Take it from me...don't even bother.

I rub elbows with a lot of guys who play loud roots music and I'm a gear dork, so I spend a good amount of time checking out what other people use. The hot setup of the moment seems to be plywood bass strung with gut or synthetic (Pirastro Slaps are gaining fans quickly) amplified with the venerable Underwood, a GK or Genz head or rackmount preamp such as the Solstice plus rackmount power amp, and a Greenboy cabinet. I have yet to try one myself, because I hate using amplifiers, but everyone I know who has one loves it and many who don't are saving to have one built.

 

[Jay Corwin]

hello sir!

not to creep you out, but i have been keeping an eye on you.

I'm flattered.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I agree that the Greenboy stuff seems to the hot ticket in town right now.

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

I had gut strings (Red-O-Rays) on my carved E.H.Roth bass for a few gigs and they worked well with my standard pickup/amp combo: a Fishman Full Circle through a Markacoustic AC101 combo.

- Steve

 

[sondrelj]

I play a plywood with clef guts, and use an Ehrlund contact mic, plugged into the PA, and with an amp for louder venues, usually from the venues backline. If can, I avoid the amp entirely if the PA is good.

I usually move the Ehrlund around a bit from venue to venue on sound check, and I like the way it's not a piezo, being a bit more boomy and midrange heavy rather than having a too tight and dominating low-end. But I don't play with a drummer. That might change things quite a bit with regards to volume.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I have a gut-like setup (Velvet Garbo w/ Gut G).

DPA-4099b and copper Realist
Headway EDB2
Focus S.A.
Wizzy 12 propped off the ground. Maybe pole mounted soon

A good mic reinforced with a pickup seems to way to go for me.

 

[neddyrow]

steve or kungfu,

what were the dates of production of red-o-ray strings?

i have no guess on the years and someone asked me how old my reds are.

sorry to digress but i am wondering since 2 other red-o-ray guys are in on the discussion.

edit: maybe i don't want to know....i love mine and doubt i'll find another set when these wear out.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

neddyrow, Kent "Superman" Blanton is the guy you wanna ask. He's forgotten more about vintage gut than I'll ever know.

As far as I know, they were in production from the 1940s to the late 1950s and came in several flavors. Red gut was made by LaBella and other companies as well. Are you sure yours are Reds?

And they're not that hard to find if you look hard enough. I've had...three?...sets of Red-O-Ray plain tops. The wound lower strings are harder to find.

 

[neddyrow]

i hope so, kunfu sheriff......i got them from you

i love them, whatever they are.

thought they were from about the 50's but the ones i got from you are in such good shape, i thought maybe newer.

thanks

back to your regularly scheduled thread

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Duh...

 

[Reiska]

I have my eye on this thread cause I`m in this at the moment, and will be, quite badly. I have a carved bass tuned in fifths, stringed with Nicholas Baldock plain gut A & D on top of Spiro Red Mitchell weich G & C. I have a Shadow Nanoflex 956 pickup + preamp ( works decently with both pizz and arco, minimal feedback problems etc, easy to fit and use ) and no amp at all, I go with what`s in the spot I`m playing in. I`m a complete idiot when it comes to anything doing with electricity and I have played mostly acoustic instruments all my life. The Shadow pickup, one way or another, does what it`s supposed to do, but I have been only couple of times in a situation where amplified sound is something I could really live with. I would love a amplifying setup that is really easy to use, with only the very necessary knobs on it, but that would bring the lovely woody sound of my bass and the low register out too. AMT is something I`m dreaming of, but it`s very expensive. I don`t know anything about these AI`s, Ampegs, whatever, never mind fdecks, preamps, cables, EQ`s, knobs, blinkin lights, lots of cables, gear s**t. The amp should take loud bands and small venues without problem, but mobility would be really appreciated.

 

[Rebop]

I have Blast Cult gut buckets with a red-o-ray wound E on my good ply bass. It sounds very natural with my setup which is a wing mounted BP100, Pro Platinum pre, then an Aguilar TH500. Finally through a Genz Benz 410xb but I'm saving up for a Fearless F112 or F115 (my cab is holding me back the most). I also use a beater plywood bass with Cordes Lambert strings through the same setup and it sounds really good as well.

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

what were the dates of production of red-o-ray strings?

I have no idea, really. Mine came with my E.H.Roth bass which was made in 1960 and the stings were obviously quite old, although in decent shape. They might have even been made by LaBella or some other maker. I just assumed that they were Red-O-Rays because they were....well, red.

- Steve

 

[DB Slidefunk]

The Ehrlund works well for me on my sonores strung bass and It's very natural sounding. I think a high pass filter is invaluable when playing guts as they can be a bit boomy and it just takes the edge off. I've also had success blending the Ehrlund with the bass band in loud situations as it's a very bright pick up cuts through a loud stage mix. For me though the ideal is to blend a troll mic and roll off all the lows. It can sound really beautiful.

The worst pick up I tried with guts was the lifeline. I can't handle the snap of guts when you dig in and distorts slightly sounding a bit nasal and farty!

 

[Groove Doctor]

The Ampeg B15 was designed for DB originally. The B100R has a few sneaky features to cop that sound:
- a 15" but in an undersized/heavy cab. Lows are controlled & nicely balance with mids... the classic 80-800Hz B15 'fullness' that sits well in a mix.
- progressive bass roll-off/HPF past 5(?) as the input is turned up. Boost input signal to avoid this.
- high freq roll off @8kHz (?) giving a warmer tone, less piezo quack.
- no tweeter so Treble boost switch doesn't sound shrill.


Ever tried a Sansamp pre/DI?
- Blend in 25-50% amp sim for a thicker/fuller tone on loud gigs,
- use as a boost to get more volume out of your B100R.
- Gives a similar sound to blending in a mag PU with steels, which isn't an option with guts.
- ParaDriver's sweepable mid freq is very handy too.
- might not be the puritan option, but at 100dB might be exactly what you need to be heard.

Although it has casters, they don't help you in Buffalo during the winter months when everything is covered in snow

Ever tried a kids plastic toboggan to slide it over snow??

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I agree 66%. I've had two B100Rs and a B50R and still can't figure out why I sold them. Was I that broke?

We're going to part ways on the SansAmp. I was one of the first people to run a SABDDI in line, and I never figured out why people like them. It just eats midrange, and that was the least of its' problems.

But the "sliding stuff over snow on a sled" plan is a keeper. You know how many tons of firewood I've dragged out of the woods on a $5 plastic sled? I'll bet it's a great come-along technique for amps too.