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Double Bass GUTS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!

#861
I put a Dlugolecki plain A string on this afternoon... wow!
Head & shoulders above the Efrano and the Lenzner A's I've tried. I also had a Pistoy A for a week from Bob Kneble a while back. I think Damian's A is the best of the bunch and probably by quite a bit when it's all stretched and settled. One thing I really like about his strings are that they are really clear and smooth. This string is like glass and the twist is not very obvious.
I've had the same DD D & G strings on this bass for 3 years now and they show very little signs of wear. The price doesn't hurt as much with that kind of longevity.
End progris report.
-Jeff
 
#862
Wow, about a a year after I gave it a go, it seems some of ya'll have gone back to a plain A. Maybe the second time is the charm? My big regret in my experiment was not trying it with a wound gut E and only used Velvets/Innovations. I think a wound string would really improve the response of the set as a whole. Also, I think I could deal with a single wound string, even in NYC. Also, if I only needed to be replacing/rewinding one string regularly, thats doable. No worse than needing to buy two Animas, particularly with the recent price jump!

I didn't like arco on my Pistoy A, which is weird because so many people on here gush about bowing Pistoy gut. I was frustrated by the slowness and hugeness of the big plain guy, as well. I'm still interested in a plain A though, so I might go Dlugolecki G-A with a wound E next time I buy some guts? Probably won't be for a while, though. Thats a big initial investment anyway you cut it!

progris report-

For now, I've gone back to something very similar to my first gut setup; Anima E+A, Gamut varnished Lyon Medium+ D, and a Chorda G. I got these used with about a month use on each, so they will last for years if I want to keep them on. This feels better than the last time, as the gut are stiffer/heavier and the Animas are newer. Its a very old-school, PC sounding setup that is actually pretty clear going up the D string. The D string is the biggest on the bass, which is weird in thumb position and is requiring some serious practice time. Metronome work is key, as always.

Arco is fine for the long-tone type stuff I need to do, although the blend between gut and Anima is much less balanced than pizz and the huge gauged D becomes problematic. The guts project better but are scratchy and volatile in comparison to the Anima E+A, which are really mellow in comparison. Strangely, I'm not liking the slap as much as I liked it with Gut G, Anima D-E. For slap, I really like progressive gauge. I can deal with the arco better, which is at least good enough for intonation practice. I find with a plain gut setup, I tend to focus on my pizz sound and the performance arco / slap stuff falls to the side....

end progris report.
 
#863
I'm there with you Jay, I was really unsatisfied the first go round with the plain A too. I've definitely changed as a player and that may be the biggest difference. I play most of my gigs without an amp so unamplified tone and volume is a big thing for me. I find the gut strings do that best. I also had a new bridge cut without adjusters and the sound of the bass as a whole is really good with a lot of clear bottom end. Through a PA with either a mic or the pick-up sounds really good too.
I'll post a picture of the string so everyone can see the difference in the twist.
-Jeff
 
#865
Damian's plain A string is settling nicely. Though it's taken a while both to break in and for me to get used to it. If a lack of quickness is what you object to in unwound A strings then this one won't be much different. Plain As are just slow. At this point I wouldn't say it's far and away better than the Pistoy but I like it better. It sounds great slapped but it really shines with the bow (though I'm still a hack at both!)
YMMV IMHO, etc
-Jeff
 
#866
Yeah, plain gut Ds are JUST barely quick enough for me pizz, although my new Lyon will probably get better after it settles in after another month or so. Even the Pistoy A couldn't cut it pizz, on my bass and in my hands of course. I think a plain gut A would be great on a slap-oriented set that needed to do some pizz and arco work, though.
 
#867
I don't have any trouble with quickness with guts. I get around on a Pistoy D just as fast as I do on a Spiro D. The touch is different and if you don't spend some time really shedding on that touch, you'll never get quick on guts. Practice playing scales or scale fragments up and down the D and G strings. The exercise is for the right hand so what notes you play with the left are not as important. Start slow and work your way up to as fast as possible and just keep it up. After a while your right hand will adapt to the rubbery feel and you'll be flying up and down the neck. If you don't want to play scales, practice walking something like Rhythm Changes or blues at 300+ bpm and do at least 20-30 choruses. After a couple of choruses, your right hand will feel like it's going to fall off. After you master the touch though, it'll be easy and you'll be able to go all night at fast tempos. It's all about finding the balance of relaxation with just enough tension to get the note to speak. We are used to using much higher tension in our right hands with steel than we need to with gut. Once you find the bounce, your speed and endurance on gut will markedly increase.

That's how I solved the problem anyway. First step is to recognize what the problem is (too much tension in the right hand), second step is to find directed exercises that will help you find and internalize the balance point with respect to relaxation and the tension barely needed to get the notes to speak.

mark
 
#868
Mark Perna said:
I don't have any trouble with quickness with guts. I get around on a Pistoy D just as fast as I do on a Spiro D. The touch is different and if you don't spend some time really shedding on that touch, you'll never get quick on guts. Practice playing scales or scale fragments up and down the D and G strings. The exercise is for the right hand so what notes you play with the left are not as important. Start slow and work your way up to as fast as possible and just keep it up. After a while your right hand will adapt to the rubbery feel and you'll be flying up and down the neck. If you don't want to play scales, practice walking something like Rhythm Changes or blues at 300+ bpm and do at least 20-30 choruses. After a couple of choruses, your right hand will feel like it's going to fall off. After you master the touch though, it'll be easy and you'll be able to go all night at fast tempos. It's all about finding the balance of relaxation with just enough tension to get the note to speak. We are used to using much higher tension in our right hands with steel than we need to with gut. Once you find the bounce, your speed and endurance on gut will markedly increase.

That's how I solved the problem anyway. First step is to recognize what the problem is (too much tension in the right hand), second step is to find directed exercises that will help you find and internalize the balance point with respect to relaxation and the tension barely needed to get the notes to speak.

mark
Click to expand...

Great advice! The thing that I really have come to love about gut is you don't necessarily sacrifice volume and the gut bloom when you back off on how hard you pull but there is still so much nuance is the character of the attack. It really took me 3 or 4 months to get there though. It was the D. The G was an easy transition. I got tripped up all the time on the D. So much that I wanted to cut them off mid solo more than once. It really takes time. Once you get used to it though you'll never notice.

Funny story. A friend, who is a pretty smokin player, sat in recently. I never realized how much I'd gotten used to my setup. First thing she says before the tune even starts is "your strings are so high". I've played her bass and the strings are not overly low but she uses spiro reds which you just cannot crank up like guts with killing your arms. So the tune starts and she looks at the thing like it just landed from Mars. It made me remember that feeling the first day I put guts on my bass. I felt like a beginner.

The other interesting thing though is once you get used to guts using a steel bass is easy to switch back to. I recently did an out-of-town gig where I had to use a rental that had D'Addario hybrids (which are not 'hybrid' in that they use some alternate core material but rather a 'hybrid' of their orchestra and pizzicato strings) and aside from my severe distain for those particular strings playing as easy.
 
#869
Just an progris report: I've gotten very used to the Anima/Olive setup. I dont' feel like they're any different from a steel setup. Can play fast tempo about just the same as I did before. The tone is fat, but mainly because I feel like my RH technique has gotten so much better from playing gut. I wasn't trying to learn how to play unamplified but it's so loud now that I can actually manage it. I had a sort of masterclass with Matt Slocum and played completely unampled and nobody had a problem hearing me (of course he has a really good touch on the kit).

My advice to others (even steel players) is to get guts just to learn RH technique. With good guidance from a teacher I think it really does wonders for developing your sound.
 
#870
I had to do some changing of my technique. I'm famous among my musical compatriots for having huge attack. I came from Evah regulars. When I first started on gut it was causing all kinds of problems because I was always getting caught up. These days when I walk I use the one finger thing and hump the **** out of the quarter note. When I solo though I do two finger and change my finger angle so I don't dig in too hard.
 
#873
In reference to temporarily going back to steel, about 3 weeks ago, I had a gig with a singer-songwriter and decided to pull out the bass strung with Spiros to use on this gig. I really hadn't played on steel in about 2 and half years so I wanted to shed a bit on it to get used to it and for the bass to open up. I took it to a couple of jazz jam sessions as a sort of warm up. You guys are right; it was extremely easy to play. My right hand technique was really developed from playing gut.

The only thing that I really disliked was soloing. I was so used to a nice fat "thup" all of the way up the neck that the whiny, thinner sound that steel gets as you go up the neck (which NEVER bothered me when I was a full-time steel player) started out as irritating and eventually became maddening. The mid-rangey sizzle was also annoying. I solved part of the problem by replacing the Spiro G with an Anima G.

I ended up playing a couple of lower-key jazz gigs prior to the singer songwriter gig with the steel string bass and was promptly reminded of something that I had forgotten: with gut strings, my sound is pretty much the same from room to room. With steel, it can change drastically with the room.

It was really nice to get back the gut bass after the singer-songwriter gig was over. I'm glad I have the steel string bass there for the odd gig where it would be appropriate but gut is where my heart (and head) is.

mark
 
#874
This is interesting to me...prior to reading this, I would have thought one's technique would have suffered due to the lowered tensions of guts, especially on the left hand. This is comforting to know that the opposite seems to be true...I am currently using Compas 180 which are at 26 KG per string, simlar to the Anima. Is it a huge leap in feel going from Velvet strings to guts, such as Gamut Pistoy's?
 
#875
engedi1 said:
This is interesting to me...prior to reading this, I would have thought one's technique would have suffered due to the lowered tensions of guts, especially on the left hand. This is comforting to know that the opposite seems to be true...I am currently using Compas 180 which are at 26 KG per string, simlar to the Anima. Is it a huge leap in feel going from Velvet strings to guts, such as Gamut Pistoy's?
Click to expand...

Yeah. It is on the D and G. The Animas feel significantly more stiff. During my early experiments, I tried an Anima D with a Pistoy G and had to abandon it because the stiffness difference was too great between the G and D. I kept tripping over the D when I went to it.

Once again, recognize that gut requires a different, lighter touch than steel and you have figure it out and internalize it if you want to maintain your technical ability. It took me months to internalize that touch and even more months before it was natural. Now I have a greater technical facility with guts than I do with Spiros.

It just takes a bit of focused practice to get there.

mark
 
#876
I've been using Spiro Solo Gauge E&A with Gamuts on top (Pistoy D, Lyon G) and finding it to be a very nice combination. The tension and tone are surprisingly well balanced, and the Spiro Solos, being low tension when tuned at regular pitch, feel fine when the action is at gut-string height. My Gamut A is being rewound so I put on the Solos, but I may actually stick with them. They sound good, feel good, and it's great to have 2 stable strings! :)
 
#878
Bobby King said:
I've been using Spiro Solo Gauge E&A with Gamuts on top (Pistoy D, Lyon G) and finding it to be a very nice combination. The tension and tone are surprisingly well balanced, and the Spiro Solos, being low tension when tuned at regular pitch, feel fine when the action is at gut-string height. My Gamut A is being rewound so I put on the Solos, but I may actually stick with them. They sound good, feel good, and it's great to have 2 stable strings! :)
Click to expand...

Yeah. When I switched my E/A from Gamuts over to Garbos (then Animas), I felt the same way. I'm very happy with Pistoy G/D, Anima E/A. Since my switch to gut over 2 and half years ago, this has been the combination that's been on the bass the longest.

mark
 
#879
earlier this week I played on a baroque bassist's setup. he gave private lessons for the three bass players in the baroque ensemble at my school (myself included). he had two unwound guts, a Eudoxa A and an Olive E. the raw guts were scratchy under the bow, but the sound otherwise was fantastic. I switched back to my bass and not only was everything sharper (he was in A=416) , but there was this subterranean octave missing!

crazy experience.

eerbrev
 
#880
fingers said:
I had to do some changing of my technique. I'm famous among my musical compatriots for having huge attack. I came from Evah regulars. When I first started on gut it was causing all kinds of problems because I was always getting caught up. These days when I walk I use the one finger thing and hump the **** out of the quarter note. When I solo though I do two finger and change my finger angle so I don't dig in too hard.
Click to expand...

Going from guts to Spiros or other non-gut is one thing, and the gut right-hand technique can carry over. But going from say Spiros to guts is another situation because the right-hand has to cut back on the attack. I had a longer Spiro gig these past few months and really got used to digging into them. When I got back to playing gut, I was playing them too hard.
 

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