Double Bass GUTS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Slight tangent to the thread, but what are the names of these recordings? I've honestly never thought about what bass Charlie was playing on any given record...Charlie just always sounds like Charlie.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Slight tangent to the thread, but what are the names of these recordings? I've honestly never thought about what bass Charlie was playing on any given record...Charlie just always sounds like Charlie.

The albums are called Closeness and The Golden Number. They are on Spotify. Also on YouTube.

 

[Selim]

I’m with Chris Fitzgerald in that Charlie Haden sounds like Charlie Haden no matter what bass or strings. No doubt!

Anyway, here’s a pic from the back cover of the original vinyl of Closeness. This isn’t the Vuillaume because it has a plain scroll.

But then also, here’s a pic from the “third” duet record, with HAmpton Hawes on the great artist house label (Jan. 76) that was recorded the same year as Closeness (Jan & mar 76). It’s definitely the Vuillaume, it’s even mentioned down at the bottom of the page.

So you could be right Jason—perhaps the pic with the bass on the back of Closeness was a pic from another time period. That pic threw me off. But I have heard him in person with a Pollmann (old enough) and I remember others in these pages referring to it.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I’m with Chris Fitzgerald in that Charlie Haden sounds like Charlie Haden no matter what bass or strings. No doubt!

Anyway, here’s a pic from the back cover of the original vinyl of Closeness. This isn’t the Vuillaume because it has a plain scroll.

But then also, here’s a pic from the “third” duet record, with HAmpton Hawes on the great artist house label (Jan. 76) that was recorded the same year as Closeness (Jan & mar 76). It’s definitely the Vuillaume, it’s even mentioned down at the bottom of the page.

So you could be right Jason—perhaps the pic with the bass on the back of Closeness was a pic from another time period. That pic threw me off. But I have heard him in person with a Pollmann (old enough) and I remember others in these pages referring to it.

The Vuillaume has a plain scroll as well and I would bet that scroll in the photo is not a Pollmann based on the fluting and quality of wood. I did see him playing on a shiny Pollmann in a video from Germany but I thought that might have been a loaner or even a bass he kept in Europe for touring. Still sounds like Charlie of course thought not quite as rich.

 

[Earl]

Could this be the Pollmann?

 

[Selim]

Could this be the Pollmann?View attachment 3305189

Another nice duet record. Looks like the same figured scroll from the Hawes duet record that the liner notes call a Vuillaume, c. 1840.

But then — just to make it more confusing — the liner notes to this LP with Christian E that Earl posted above talks about him playing his “big Pollmann” or something to that effect.

 

[Selim]

Liner notes have been wrong!

 

[Selim]

I always thought that that ornate carved edging was a Pollmann thing. But I admit to not knowing much—there are others who I’m sure can provide more definitive info.

 

[Jason Sypher]

It would appear that Pollmann made a bass for Charlie that had similar dimensions to the Vuillaume. The Lion's head and the ornate carving is a Pollmann for sure. Charlie's Vuillaume can be seen here, still for sale, at Robertson's Violins...Robertson & Sons Violin Shop - Bass Inventory

 

[Earl]

I always thought that that ornate carved edging was a Pollmann thing. But I admit to not knowing much—there are others who I’m sure can provide more definitive info.

That's what I always thought as well. And his bass on this recording sounds much brighter than usual.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Not all Pollmanns get the fancy carving.

Interestingly, the sole employee responsible for that detail work is of advanced age and the company does not plan to replace him once his work is done.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Last night, I changed my tail gut from a Velvet nylon something, to a gut tail gut from Efrano. The bass feels softer and has louder fundamentals. BUT at the same time, I made the tail gut a bit longer (The Velvet got a bit too short when I shortened it, because I had to cut it, no way to untie the old knot). And my sound post fell in the proces, and I had to reset it (pretty much the same place though). And I also cut half of my end pin while I was at it (far too long for me).
But for what its worth, this change is not your thing if you are into sustain and overtones. But if you are into fundamentals, soft touch, "natural" note envelope, "deep" attack, it is interesting...

 

[Povl Carstensen]

While I am posting. I use all plain gut. And I recently came to think about, a difference between wound strings and plain strings, is that wound strings often have the same core thickness, or at least more similar from, G to E. This also goes for wound gut. Which give wound strings a more similar elasticity across strings, for a given tension. Whereas plain strings, being all core, have a huge difference in core thickness. Which could mean, the thicker strings have less elasticity for a given tension. Just something more to ponder in my quest for the most uniform feel across strings...

 

[Jason Sypher]

I'm working on a record right now and decided to go gut for one of the tunes. I wanted a more open sound to the notes and that snap that you get when you play something fast. If you listen to Eddie Gomez play a fast line on guts it just has that extra thang on top. I didn't lower my strings to get that fingerboard noise the Eddie gets but I got some of the wisp on top. It will be different than the other tunes on the album that have my darker sounding Italian with spiros, but that's ok. I think guts were a better fit for the song.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Thanks for the tip, Povi. My (plain) gut bass is a first-year King Mortone. I kept the coat hanger tailgut so the bass would be almost completely original as it came from the factory, but a gut tailgut is intriguing.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

While I am posting. I use all plain gut. And I recently came to think about, a difference between wound strings and plain strings, is that wound strings often have the same core thickness, or at least more similar from, G to E. This also goes for wound gut. Which give wound strings a more similar elasticity across strings, for a given tension. Whereas plain strings, being all core, have a huge difference in core thickness. Which could mean, the thicker strings have less elasticity for a given tension. Just something more to ponder in my quest for the most uniform feel across strings...

Wound gut strings can differ in core diameter. At least the older way of construction that is still used for some sets. That older way of construction is one layer of windings on a gut core. Some even use an E with a broken winding unwound for a d string or an A unwound for a G string.
But if several layers of metal are used for the windings the same core can be used for all the strings of the set.

If you mean length elasticity or stretching under tension with elasticity you are right, but the windings of a thicker string Ora thicker core makes the string stiff.
A thick core damps the string more than a thinner core, but easy bendability of a string becomes limited by either a thick core or thick windings. Longer use of strings might stretch the string, so that the windings have microspaces in between for easier bending and/or the winding material might get deformed because of the pressure during the bending that happens with vibration of the string.
Of course the core material itself and the the construction of the core has a high influence on bending too.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Wound gut strings can differ in core diameter. At least the older way of construction that is still used for some sets. That older way of construction is one layer of windings on a gut core. Some even use an E with a broken winding unwound for a d string or an A unwound for a G string.
But if several layers of metal are used for the windings the same core can be used for all the strings of the set.

If you mean length elasticity or stretching under tension with elasticity you are right, but the windings of a thicker string Ora thicker core makes the string stiff.
A thick core damps the string more than a thinner core, but easy bendability of a string becomes limited by either a thick core or thick windings. Longer use of strings might stretch the string, so that the windings have microspaces in between for easier bending and/or the winding material might get deformed because of the pressure during the bending that happens with vibration of the string.
Of course the core material itself and the the construction of the core has a high influence on bending too.

Yes, but that still means the core of wound gut E and A strings are closer to plain D and G's (a combination used by many). And I was definitely talking about stretching, allthough bendability is also interesting.
I am for instance thinking about the "sweet spot" distance from the end of the fingerboard, where you prefer to pluck the strings. Where the "give" is perfect (to you). You (I) want that to be uniform from string to string. And that depends on both tension and stretching elasticity. In my current setup I feel I want to pluck the G and D closer to the end of the board than A and E. That sort of thing I am working on, while staying with my "dogma" of plain guts.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I am for instance thinking about the "sweet spot" distance from the end of the fingerboard, where you prefer to pluck the strings. Where the "give" is perfect (to you). You (I) want that to be uniform from string to string. And that depends on both tension and stretching elasticity. In my current setup I feel I want to pluck the G and D closer to the end of the board than A and E. That sort of thing I am working on, while staying with my "dogma" of plain guts.

A thicker core of the same material and construction needs a higher force to stretch. Since plucking is an elongation of the string, the force you need to displace the string by the same amount is less if you do that closer to the middle of the string. I hunk this is the reason why you have problems with plain gut. I got my experience with gut strings primarily with viola da gamba and Violone (a small cello-sized one), so I know why I try to avoid gut strings on a double bass. On the other hand a naked gut high C string is much easier to play than a Spiro high C. I have a set of Efranos and older Pirastro Gold/Gelb gut strings, just in case I might need them some time, but I am currently happy with metal wound synthetic core strings.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

There is however one more variable, you can play with, and that is string height (action). Perhaps a heavier gauge G and D and lower action wil get me closer...

 

[DoubleMIDI]

A lot of people use lower tension naked gut D under a bit higher tension naked gut G.
One reason is that the lower tension D is more flexible (bendable) and less damped.

An alternative would be higher twisted gut which is also more stretchable and bendable, but there are limited suppliers for higher twisted gut and as far as I know they usually only do two different twist rates (but you might ask them what is possible and what makes sense). Usually gut manufacturers can do custom naked strings and do not charge a fortune for it.

You might have read about the popular Lyon (low twist) gut G and Pistoy (high twist) gut D combination from Gamut strings. Aquila strings in Italy also does low and high twist gut strings, but both are rather expensive. You might want to ask Baldock in Germany if they do low and high twist strings. Their strings are more affordable and not bad, I was told by a colleague.