Double Bass GUTS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!

[Reiska]

Thanks Chris for the food for the thought!

There are two aspects to posture, and I had forgotten one of them:
1) The angle of the bass in relation to the body
2) and angle of the body in relation to the bass

My biggest recurring technical mistake is forgetting that they are two separate issues and not one big issue.

Never thought about it that deep. I stand when playing mainly pizz, and sit when playing mainly arco nowadays. Stool for the arco has helped a lot, as the main ingredient in my set of problems has been Karr -type of " right up " stance and the increased reaching in pizz playing that made things worse. I switched to a bit more angled stance, with the bass more in front of me vs on my side. This allows for freer movement on my right arm, I kind of raise my arm and then let it fall back to me in front of my torso. I don`t have turn my torso and reach as much for the higher strings. However, all this is very much in it`s developing stage and while the angle is more natural for my left hand too it has changed the intonation code, I have to focus on a whole new set of problems while playing. This takes away the focus from the right arm movement at times. What I`m trying to do is to stand straight with my shoulders as much in line as possible and maintain this posture without turning my torso, only leaning to the bass when moving up the fingerboard. However, every time that low tension bottom strings / high setup has nearly killed me the spiros on the bottom / lower setup has helped, no matter what kind of posture I`m in. I don`t have to work as hard to get volume or speed out of the lower strings.

As much as I love the sound of plain gut GDA or other really low tension / high strings setups, I quess it`s just not for me. It just eats way too much focus and energy if all the purpose of practising and playing is not to hurt. The positive side of it all is that it has forced me to focus on the weaknesses of my tone producing and technique. And, I`m not mourning here, Spiro w / Chorda setup ain`t that bad either

 

[Don Hergert]

Believe it or not, this long post is mostly about DB strings and setup, and even somewhat about guts...

We jammed last night; this was probably one of the best bluegrass/roots house jams that we get to attend yearly. We were there playing for about 7.5 hours. I played double bass for the first 5 or so hours, then when the other banjo players had left I pulled out my banjo and played with the impenitent few for the rest of the evening.

Banjo is my main instrument and I will probably always love playing it, but usually I'll opt to play something else if a jam already has more than one banjo player; it is so rare to find a banjoist who is meticulous about their volume and tone control, and two banjos in a jam is usually only worse, not better. This particular jam had a few banjo players already, so I kept mine in the case most of the evening. I also had my mandolin, but that is mostly a personal practice and meditation instrument for me; I'll jam playing mandolin occasionally but there were other much better mandolin players at this jam. But there weren't any double bass players, so last night I had my Alcoa in hand most of the evening, and I had a truly wonderful time playing it. As with most good jams, time flew by without any concern.

As of now, about 12 hours later, I'm not feeling any soreness or stiffness other than my preexisting and age related stuff, but I know that when I do any kind of marathon, the 2nd day after is when I usually feel it the most. So by this time tomorrow I'll probably be able to say more. But I also seem to have escaped this wonderful jamming experience with no blisters or hot-spots, which is really kind of pleasant.

There was another double bass just sitting and available when we arrived there that I played first. It was wearing a complete set of standard whackers, and while it had nice tone, it was pretty quiet. Also, the action was too low for my comfort, so I wheeled in my Alcoa after the first song. I have to say without shyness, I love my double bass's setup...

This is probably heresy, but I'll say it among friends here anyway... Just the right action is critical for both hands, so critical that I cannot imagine having a double bass that doesn't have easily usable adjusters on the bridge; it takes a lot of personal experimenting to really get that action right and it changes frequently depending on weather. Personally I have trouble believing that one visit to a luthier could possibly ever find that action setting on a particular double bass for any particular individual; "getting used to it" with a generalized action setting that a luthier may make is probably one of the main reasons many players get injuries (and choosing the wrong strings is probably another). There are just too many variables, a person has to be with the instrument day in and day out in order find the action sweet spot for themselves. In my mind, tone, maintenance and the more technical setup items are rightfully the luthier's setup realm; but playability is mostly the responsibility of the player.

And yes, the strings also are a big part of that... Last night I played the strings on my Alcoa with great confidence all evening, knowing that I was being heard and that the tone was good, and that I wasn't hurting myself. It must have showed because people followed the tempo very nicely, and I was asked to take breaks very often, for maybe 50+% of the songs which is really rare in a bluegrass/roots jam setting. On my Alcoa the synthetic mix that I'm using produced strong, percussive natural sounding tone and excellent volume with empowering sustain. Muting is very important in bluegrass/roots, but having the ability to sustain a key note here and there can really make a difference; I did even pull out my bow a few times for some really long background notes with good results.

Right now I'm still pretty sure that there is going to be a plain gut D and a plain gut G sometime in my future, but they're going to have to be really excellent strings with no playability draw-backs of any kind in order to compete with the kind of playing experience that I had last night.

I know guts have weather and maintenance requirements and when I get them I'll be prepared for that, but I have to say, from things I read in this thread particularly about playability, I'm getting a little skeptical about the general gut experience. My thinking right now is that when I do pull the trigger, I'll get the best plain gut D and G that is available, with the thought that if they don't work out I'll be able to sell them here and recuperate some of the cost. I know there are custom gut string makers that might even be able to match the gauges and tensions that I'm used to with my existing synthetic D and G, and I may go with them. We'll see. But the bar is very high here, I'll be looking for strings that at least match the playing experiences I'm having with my existing synthetic mix.

I really appreciate people here in this thread that have recently been sharing their pain and playing frustrations. I know that hearing about these has helped me put gut strings into a more realistic perspective, and I think we can all benefit from that.

 

[AGCurry]

As of now, about 12 hours later, I'm not feeling any soreness or stiffness other than my preexisting and age related stuff, but I know that when I do any kind of marathon, the 2nd day after is when I usually feel it the most. So by this time tomorrow I'll probably be able to say more. But I also seem to have escaped this wonderful jamming experience with no blisters or hot-spots, which is really kind of pleasant.
...
Right now I'm still pretty sure that there is going to be a plain gut D and a plain gut G sometime in my future, but they're going to have to be really excellent strings with no playability draw-backs of any kind in order to compete with the kind of playing experience that I had last night.
...
I know guts have weather and maintenance requirements and when I get them I'll be prepared for that, but I have to say, from things I read in this thread particularly about playability, I'm getting a little skeptical about the general gut experience. ... I'll get the best plain gut D and G that is available...

After having tried several combinations of gut strings, I've come to the conclusion that we - in general - obsess a bit too much about getting the "just right" plain gut D and G strings. I've found very little difference from LaBella to Lenzner to Gamut Lyon. All of them work well for me pizzicato, and I find them pretty easily bowed as well.

E and A are different stories.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

dhergert, when you finally make the leap to gut you’ll wonder why you waited so damn long.

Whackers are fun to play and very easy on the hands, but they’re a pale substitute.

 

[Don Hergert]

dhergert, when you finally make the leap to gut you’ll wonder why you waited so damn long.

Whackers are fun to play and very easy on the hands, but they’re a pale substitute.

I'm hoping that will be the case... And I'll be the first to admit it if that is what happens.

 

[Reiska]

@dhergert For me the thing about guts is that I happily take the drawbacks because there really are no substitutes. There will be a learning process involved, no plain gut D behaves like any other string. It will take time and practise to learn to live with one. Some of those qualities that seems like drawbacks to the drivers seat fill the room like nothing else from the other perspective, and if your inner ear begins to hear that tone and your hands get used to that feel there propably ain`t no turning back. That`s what happened to me.

Played a gig today with Spirow / Chorda CH setup and ended up switching to solos on the EA with a turn higher on the adjusters after the gig. It wasn`t bad or anything, but I need that minimum height of 11-ish mm`s under the D string to deliver what I hear and that`s the point where weichs starts to feel unplayable on my bass. I realised too that it must be some sort of destiny for me to use downtuned steel solos on the bottom. That`s the feel I`m after, with balanced medium - high action, where I`m most comfortable. There`s some flexibility on the bottom but no need to go crazy high action like with plain A or Evah slaps. Another aspect of downtuned steel solos is the winding surface -super smooth. I love the sound of Garbos, Animas and wrapped gut, but absolutely can`t live with the scratchy feel. My only slab, a fretless P, which I play app. once a month at home, wears flatwounds for this reason. And again, Thomastik steel is the best on the planet. No weird tension bs like with every Pirastro offering and serious longevity.

With this said, anyone tried downtuned Superflexible solos under guts? Spiros are what they are, but I`d like to know if these were a little less temperamental -less mwahhy, less metallic, a tad darker?

 

[Earl]

@dhergert For me the thing about guts is that I happily take the drawbacks because there really are no substitutes. There will be a learning process involved, no plain gut D behaves like any other string. It will take time and practise to learn to live with one. Some of those qualities that seems like drawbacks to the drivers seat fill the room like nothing else from the other perspective, and if your inner ear begins to hear that tone and your hands get used to that feel there propably ain`t no turning back. That`s what happened to me.

Played a gig today with Spirow / Chorda CH setup and ended up switching to solos on the EA with a turn higher on the adjusters after the gig. It wasn`t bad or anything, but I need that minimum height of 11-ish mm`s under the D string to deliver what I hear and that`s the point where weichs starts to feel unplayable on my bass. I realised too that it must be some sort of destiny for me to use downtuned steel solos on the bottom. That`s the feel I`m after, with balanced medium - high action, where I`m most comfortable. There`s some flexibility on the bottom but no need to go crazy high action like with plain A or Evah slaps. Another aspect of downtuned steel solos is the winding surface -super smooth. I love the sound of Garbos, Animas and wrapped gut, but absolutely can`t live with the scratchy feel. My only slab, a fretless P, which I play app. once a month at home, wears flatwounds for this reason. And again, Thomastik steel is the best on the planet. No weird tension bs like with every Pirastro offering and serious longevity.

With this said, anyone tried downtuned Superflexible solos under guts? Spiros are what they are, but I`d like to know if these were a little less temperamental -less mwahhy, less metallic, a tad darker?

I am using Superflexible solo E and A with a Gamut D and a Damian D. G string. Less mwah, very bright and metallic when brand new but they settle to a nice clear warmth when broken in. My bass is pretty dark and boomy so they work well in keeping the bottom focused, but they may not be suitable for a bright bass.

 

[Reiska]

Thanks a lot @Earl , this one surely came from a good and respectful family! You had the answer right too, that`s about what I`m looking for. My bass ain`t particularly bright or dark, I`ve described it beeing woody and lyrical sounding, it enhances mwah and growl. I`ve been lurking for Thomas Morgan stuff in YT to hear not only great music, but SF`s in action.

As I`ve been switching between plain GDA / guts w. solos setups, I also ran out of adjusting room on my bridge. I have a Teller blank with ebony adjusters that my luthier is about to fit next monday and my Lifeline is for metal adjusters. I`ll ditch the piezo, been thinking about that for a long time. I`m not a professional bassist and thinking latest 12 months I only had one gig, wich eventually got cancelled, that would have required a pickup, or at least required when rehearsing. In my two main projects there is allways possibility for micing when needed.

So here I go, after surviving the financial hit of the new bridge I`ll get Superflexible solos for the bottom.

edit: Pulled the trigger allready, 89,00€ delivered from bassico.eu Germany.

 

[Earl]

Thanks a lot @Earl , this one surely came from a good and respectful family! You had the answer right too, that`s about what I`m looking for. My bass ain`t particularly bright or dark, I`ve described it beeing woody and lyrical sounding, it enhances mwah and growl. I`ve been lurking for Thomas Morgan stuff in YT to hear not only great music, but SF`s in action.

As I`ve been switching between plain GDA / guts w. solos setups, I also ran out of adjusting room on my bridge. I have a Teller blank with ebony adjusters that my luthier is about to fit next monday and my Lifeline is for metal adjusters. I`ll ditch the piezo, been thinking about that for a long time. I`m not a professional bassist and thinking latest 12 months I only had one gig, wich eventually got cancelled, that would have required a pickup, or at least required when rehearsing. In my two main projects there is allways possibility for micing when needed.

So here I go, after surviving the financial hit of the new bridge I`ll get Superflexible solos for the bottom.

edit: Pulled the trigger allready, 89,00€ delivered from bassico.eu Germany.

You can hear them in this post: [URL="https://www.talkbass.com/threads/you-on-youtube-db-forum-thread.696395/page-13#post-22899702"]YOU - on youtube (DB forum thread)[/URL]

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

I don't detect that much fun on this thread these days.

- Steve

 

[ericsmith]

I don't detect that much fun on this thread these days.

- Steve

I just played a gig in direct sunlight and those guts turned piping hot...! Not so much fun, no.

 

[Reiska]

Thanks a lot @Earl , sounds great!

I just played a gig in direct sunlight and those guts turned piping hot...! Not so much fun, no

I played a gig yesterday during the heat record in Helsinki, not in direct sunlight but still outside. Don`t remember sweating that much on a gig ever, but the guts held tuning without any problem.

@Steve Boisen But hey, wasn`t DB playing about pain and agony in the first place? You should wipe off that bad attitude

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

@Steve Boisen But hey, wasn`t DB playing about pain and agony in the first place? You should wipe off that bad attitude

That depends largely on the drummer!

- Steve

 

[Reiska]

That depends largely on the drummer!

- Steve

Now you got my head all messed up, as I`m also a drummer.

 

[shwashwa]

I love guts, but I moved on from guts on my main bass that I play a lot because they just tore up my fretboard. David Gage said the hairs actually eat up the fingerboard more than steel strings. I had gouges in my finger board where my notes were. At least my intonation was consistent!

 

[Sam Dingle]

I love guts, but I moved on from guts on my main bass that I play a lot because they just tore up my fretboard. David Gage said the hairs actually eat up the fingerboard more than steel strings. I had gouges in my finger board where my notes were. At least my intonation was consistent!

What did you move to?

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I’ve been playing gut for ages and never have that problem. Keep the strings trimmed and oiled and your bridge high.

 

[shwashwa]

What did you move to?

Well I wanted to go to a complete set of golden slaps but the e was to floppy so I put an innovation Rock abilly black. It's a great pizzicato string and has smooth windings. It's black but it does not sound like the Ron Carter strings at all thank goodness. Still have the copper wounf gut on the a, golden slap d, and golden slap g was a little too loose so I went to super silver. Believe it or not on this bass it's a nicely balanced set

 

[JLubinsky-Mast]

I don't detect that much fun on this thread these days.

- Steve

Au Contraire Hermano.

Recently pulled the old red Artone?? G&D off my bass. Great strings, but quite stiff, and hard to find an E&A that balanced them tension wise.
Went back to my full Gamut set-up. Then pulled the trigger on a Lyon G.
Wow, it really "brings the room together"

 

[Matt Birtchnell]

Au Contraire Hermano.
Then pulled the trigger on a Lyon G.
Wow, it really "brings the room together"

I've recently replaced my Gamut Pistoy G with a Gamut Lyon G, and I'm really liking it, it feels a bit more tense. It sits next to a Pistoy D which is a great string.

Against common wisdom, I actually prefer the Lyon G for bowing at the moment.
My Pistoy G kept falsing on certain notes, while the Lyon G bows smoothly YMMV.