Hand-held high quality recorders - recommendations please?

[Al Krow]

Hey guys - I've currently got a Sony a6300 plus a Rode Stereo Video Mic Pro for doing live music recording of my two bands and my daughter's orchestra.

It's a pretty decent rig, but the sound quality isn't always great. I guess two things on the sound front in particular a) limitations from the quality of the camera's pre-amp and b) the tendency of the camera audio to automatically over compensate during quiet bits leading to a noisy recording in places.

I've been thinking that I could potentially get better results using a decent "hand held" (although it would obviously be stand mounted!) recorder. In terms of decent quality recorders, I've narrowed it down to the:
- Tascam DR-100 Mk3, and
- Zoom H5

I'm really interested to know:
- if you agree that I should see a significant jump in audio quality by using a separate hand held i.e. are the preamps going to be a step up over that which I have in the Sony a6300?
- which of the two hand-helds above you'd recommend? (If you have had both and have been able to A/B even better!)
- or if there are other quality hand-helds in a similar price range that I should also be considering?

 

[tsverrir]

Either one should be fine. You should be able to (and should) turn off the auto gain function (compression). When that is done the most important thing is to set the gain so it wont clip and find the best sounding spot in the room (often overlooked) you are recording. Record to 24 bit raw (wav) format. Then you can apply some compression and sweetening afterwards.

 

[Al Krow]

Either one should be fine. You should be able to (and should) turn off the auto gain function (compression). When that is done the most important thing is to set the gain so it wont clip and find the best sounding spot in the room (often overlooked) you are recording. Record to 24 bit raw (wav) format. Then you can apply some compression and sweetening afterwards.

Thanks for that. All helpful stuff!

In your view is it worth getting one in the first place? ie will the audio be better on these hand held recorders than I'm likely to be able to get via the Rode Stereo Mic into my Sony a6300?

Is it worth paying the extra $$ for the Tascam?

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

The recorder is the least of your problems for tracking orchestras and bands. That single tiny little toy mic is not enough. If you're new to this sort of thing, it's time to do some homework before buying things. While TalkBass is great for bass, it's pretty thin on recording / videography discussions. You'll get better advice over on GearSlutz in the "Remote possibilities in acoustic music and location recording" forum.

Invalid Link Removed

Lots of good books out there too.

Your initial issue is getting better mics (plural) and learning how to place them in an auditorium for accurate, effective tracking. There are many techniques depending on what you're attempting to accomplish.

Preamps on the recorder are an important issue. I've used several Zoom recorders for location tracking. You will experience a jump in Zoom preamp quality with the F4/F8 line. The H line has lower quality preamps. I've used both series and there's a clear difference to my ears.

You will also need to learn how to process the tracking in post, and then time aligning the final result with your video track.

Finally, people who watch video are used to short segments of 1-3 seconds each, which leads to needing at least three or four videocameras to create different angles on the performance for variety in post processing. Time alignment challenges escalate as you add cameras.

All this is a major commitment. Why not use the gear you have and try it out on a test performance? Use what you shoot to create a video to share (or not). Get a taste for it first. It's a lot of fun and a definite technical and artistic challenge, so could something you want to do more of. And like playing bass, it also requires a lot of time and money and learning from mistakes to do well.

The average person watches hours of video every day, so whatever you create will be subject to intense critical judgment. Be ready for it!

 

[ofajen]

What are you trying to accomplish with these recordings?

Otto

 

[Al Krow]

What are you trying to accomplish with these recordings?

Otto

Great audio to accompany high definition video recording. Some of which can be 30 mins long (e.g. live orchestra)

 

[ofajen]

What I’m getting at is who will be viewing the video and with what type of audio playback equipment? Is it mostly personal, or for a commercial purpose?

Otto

 

[DirkP]

I own the Shure MV88 and the Lewitt DGT650 for my iPhone and the Zoom H6 handy recorder. Truth is: the audio and the preamps of most DSLR cameras and system cameras leave a lot to be desired. To put it mildly. The mics are even worse. The best solution is to use an external recorder and synch the audio later. A compromise is to use an external recorder and to use the line out of the recorder to feed the camera and set the gain of the internal preamp low (the Zoom H5 and H6 allow to do this). Then you can still choose if the camera-recorded audio is enough or if you synch the audio that was recorded to the sd-card of the recorder.
All of the solutions I use are far far better than the inbuild mics and preamps of the cameras I know.
The higher quality Zooms like the H5 and the H6 have very good preamps and the mics work great, too. They are better than the Zoom preamps of older generations or lower priced recorders. The F4 or F8 preamps, not to mention the Sound Devices units, are a class better than the H5 or H6 if you want to spend the money. But all of the solutions I mentioned above are way way better than the inbuild audio of the cameras. If you are great at what you're doing and have quality mics, the F4/F8 or the Sound Devices mixpre units might be even better. But then we're really talking broadcast quality audio where money isn't an issue.
A huge advantage of the H6 is that it records up to 6 tracks at once. You can use different mics and still record the audio from the FOH directly and later get the best of all sources.
The H6 comes with two different stereo mics and you get it now for not much more money than the H5. It is cheaper at some photo stores than at the big music chains, at least here in Europe. I bought it for 295,- Euros a few weeks ago, at Thomann it is still 369,-.

 

[Al Krow]

What I’m getting at is who will be viewing the video and with what type of audio playback equipment? Is it mostly personal, or for a commercial purpose?

Otto

Ah okay, understood. I think the best label is "promotional".

Likely to be YouTube viewers with headphones, particularly for the longer orchestral stuff. Live band promo videos will, of course, be shorter.

 

[Al Krow]

@DirkP - great post, thanks!

I'm planning to go for your preferred option of separate audio and sync later. But it's going to be fairly simple set up (I'm much more a bass player than I am a competent video / sound guy!) i.e. recorder plus single mic.

I've currently got a Rode Stereo Video Mic, which instead of plugging into my Sony a6300, I could plug into the hand held. I think you're saying this will be a step up as the preamp on a H5 is going to be better than I will have in my camera?

But is the Rode actually any better than the XY mic on the H5? Or should I think about getting anything better than the Rode?

Any views on the Tascam DR-100 Mk3 vs the H5 in terms of built in mic and quality of preamp? Word on the street has it that DR-100 has better condenser mics and a lower noise floor, which sound like they're worth having?

A couple of you have now mentioned that the preamp on the Zoom F4 is a step up from the H5/H6 and it does have the benefit of SMPTE timecode which will make syncing easier which is not a feature available on the hand-helds. But it kinda feels like this is getting into semi-pro territory with 6 inputs and 8 tracks and is double the price of the H5. And whilst I didn't hesitate (well for too long anyway, when a mint used one came up!) to get a Yammy BBNE2 alongside my Yammy BB1025, I knew I could actually make good use of both ; whereas I suspect there will be a lot of features I won't be touching on the F4 and should maybe cut my teeth on the H5 (or possibly the Tascam DR-100 Mk3) instead? But now I come to think about it, if I can get one of these used in the UK, that would certainly change the economics.

 

[Al Krow]

@Ukiah Bass - very useful link thank you!

The Sound Devices Mix Pre3 looks great! This thread has been worth it for me just to discover that these exist! (Shows my level of inexperience in this arena, I'm afraid!). But, as you suggest, I think that's for the next step once I've got to grips with the basics.

You mentioned there are a load of books as well. Could you recommend me a couple please?

 

[Snaxster]

But it kinda feels like this is getting into semi-pro territory with 6 inputs and 8 tracks and is double the price of the H5.

Hello Al. Although I can't add to the good advice others here gave you already, and although you imply your sensitivity to price, I feel that someone should mention Nagra as an option.

For when you throw care to the wind and decide you want the best recorder regardless of cost: Invalid Link Removed. Specifically it would be the Invalid Link Removed for you, I think.

 

[Al Krow]

Hello Al. Although I can't add to the good advice others here gave you already, and although you imply your sensitivity to price, I feel that someone should mention Nagra as an option.

For when you throw care to the wind and decide you want the best recorder regardless of cost: Invalid Link Removed. Specifically it would be the Invalid Link Removed for you, I think.

Thanks very much for that. I'll definitely check it out

It's not a case of price sensitivity in itself (which is kinda why I mentioned I'd splashed out on a Yammy BBNE2) but more a case of not getting something that was going to be way beyond my near term capability to make use of. The way I see it, with this stuff no point really in buying kit that is "future proof" 'cos the next gen will be along in a couple of years that delivers a better product for less $$ and the current gear will be out of date! (Whereas my BBNE2 can head into retirement with me and still be as good as any of the newcomers! )

 

[ofajen]

What is the story with the orchestra? Are you recording it for "promotional" purposes? Is it a school, community or professional orchestra?

Otto

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

@Ukiah Bass - very useful link thank you!

The Sound Devices Mix Pre3 looks great! This thread has been worth it for me just to discover that these exist! (Shows my level of inexperience in this arena, I'm afraid!). But, as you suggest, I think that's for the next step once I've got to grips with the basics.

You mentioned there are a load of books as well. Could you recommend me a couple please?

Friendly intro to recording "on the cheap": https://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Home-Recording-Second-Coryat/dp/1423454464

All of Bobby Owsinski's books are excellent, but this one get you on the right track especially for microphone selection and placement: https://www.amazon.com/Recording-En...ecording+engineers+handbook+by+bobby+owsinski

This book by Bobby will help address more advanced techniques in mixing audio during post-production: https://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Engin...ecording+engineers+handbook+by+bobby+owsinski

And for the last stage of production, mastering: https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-En...ecording+engineers+handbook+by+bobby+owsinski

You can also try Google. This is for "micing an orchestra": micing an orchestra - Google Search

And so forth....

 

[Al Krow]

What is the story with the orchestra? Are you recording it for "promotional" purposes? Is it a school, community or professional orchestra?

Otto

This one: Link Removed

@Ukiah Bass - thanks very much!!

 

[ofajen]

This one: Link Removed

The sound and layout of the space and the spot within that space where you record are key factors in a far field ensemble recording. If the space isn’t plagued by prominent ambient noise, typically, air handling equipment, then omni mikes are the best choice, since they capture and present the low end accurately in the far field. Anything beyond that, like choice of preamp, recording device and so on, is secondary to the acoustical factors.

You can do a lot with those basic omni “taper” mikes like from Core Sound. They use the 1/4” Panasonic capsules, so the only possible issue is relatively high self noise, due to the small capsule, which is more noticeable if the ensemble sound level isn’t very high

Can you make arrangements with the ensemble to have an optimal location for recording, even if it is merely reserving you a front row, center aisle spot? I’ve done lots of band and orchestra recording studio over the years for my kids and then shared the recordings with the conductors. When I think to remind them in advance, they save me a seat up front to record from, which helps.

Otto

 

[Al Krow]

Otto - great advice thanks. Yes it will be easy enough to get an optimal recording location with the orchestra.

I think from what you're saying that the Tascam DR-100 MK3 is going to edge it over the Zoom H5 as it has a pair of built in omni mics which would be suitable for orchestra stuff and and also a pair of directional mics better suited for rock bands (eg my own for our own promo material).

 

[ofajen]

Otto - great advice thanks. Yes it will be easy enough to get an optimal recording location with the orchestra.

I think from what you're saying that the Tascam DR-100 MK3 is going to edge it over the Zoom H5 as it has a pair of built in omni mics which would be suitable for orchestra stuff and and also a pair of directional mics better suited for rock bands (eg my own for our own promo material).

Yeah, I’d definitely recommend having a recorder with omni mikes, either built-in or you can get something like the Core Sound binaural mikes. The plain version is $85, the tweaked version is $230. That type of mike is interesting because it is meant to be worn on your head, either near or in your ears and produce a binaural recording that retains ambient cues for headphone playback. The Sound Professionals is another seller of the omni binaural mike sets.

The close omni pairs like on the DR-100 and DR-05 will produce a similar recording overall, but less optimized for headphone playback. I’ve been doing this type of recording with a substantially similar rig for a while. My current rig is one of the original M-Audio MicroTracks that I got in about 2005 along with an omni mike module built specifically for that recorder by The Sound Professionals. However, it ends up being essentially identical to using the omni mikes built into the DR-05 or DR-100

I suspect you may find that you prefer the omni pattern for recording your band as well. The Tascam would make it easy to compare.

Otto

 

[Al Krow]

Yeah, I’d definitely recommend having a recorder with omni mikes, either built-in or you can get something like the Core Sound binaural mikes. The plain version is $85, the tweaked version is $230. That type of mike is interesting because it is meant to be worn on your head, either near or in your ears and produce a binaural recording that retains ambient cues for headphone playback. The Sound Professionals is another seller of the omni binaural mike sets.

The close omni pairs like on the DR-100 and DR-05 will produce a similar recording overall, but less optimized for headphone playback. I’ve been doing this type of recording with a substantially similar rig for a while. My current rig is one of the original M-Audio MicroTracks that I got in about 2005 along with an omni mike module built specifically for that recorder by The Sound Professionals. However, it ends up being essentially identical to using the omni mikes built into the DR-05 or DR-100

I suspect you may find that you prefer the omni pattern for recording your band as well. The Tascam would make it easy to compare.

Otto

Cheers Otto. I think I'm getting a definite steer, from what you're saying, that the DR-100 Mk3 is the one to go for over the H5. A mate of mine who is a sound engineer and has the H5 has pretty much concurred: it's a newer piece of technology (2016 vs 2013), has some useful additional features, and he said if he hadn't already got an H5 he would go for the DR-100 Mk3. So it looks like I'm getting to my answer...