Double Bass Harmonics

[Andy Mopley]

All

don't know how to technically put this, but when it comes to harmonics, there are some that, to my ear, ring quite clear. For example the note d on the g string; or the octave g on the g string. Then others where, when I play, with the somewhat limited technique (I am working on) it seems that the sound is not quite the same - say the b note on the g string that follows the g octave harmonic. Or even the way that this particular note (b) needs to be touched / pressed to produce a "clear" sound.
To be clear, is it part on an ongoing technique refinements OR are there harmonics that are a little more tricky to play?

Regards to all

 

[Don Kasper]

All

don't know how to technically put this, but when it comes to harmonics, there are some that, to my ear, ring quite clear. For example the note d on the g string; or the octave g on the g string. Then others where, when I play, with the somewhat limited technique (I am working on) it seems that the sound is not quite the same - say the b note on the g string that follows the g octave harmonic. Or even the way that this particular note (b) needs to be touched / pressed to produce a "clear" sound.
To be clear, is it part on an ongoing technique refinements OR are there harmonics that are a little more tricky to play?

Regards to all

The higher the partial # of the harmonic, the more accurately (and lightly) the finger needs to be placed, AND - the contact point of the bow needs to move drastically toward the bridge, AND - the bow speed needs to increase.
This is the short explanation.
IME.

 

[Co.]

To find out, what the bow needs to do, you could start, playing the same pitch as a normally pressed note. The B on the G string should be still on the fingerboard on most basses. Play it as a normally pressed note and find out, what the bow needs to do. Then play the same note as a harmonic in the same position. Notice the difference, especially in bow weight. Then play the same pitch as a harmonic on all four possible positions on the G string and notice the difference in response to the bow and finger pressure in the left hand.

 

[Co.]

Or are we talking about pizz?
Then be really careful, that you plucking hand is not on the same partial as the partial, you are trying to play. This can easily happen with the higher partials.
If you finger the 5th partial in a lower position but your plucking finger is on the 5th partial at the end of the fingerboard, it won't work.

The same is actually true for the bow. It doesn't actually need to be close to the bridge. It just has to be as far away from the equally pitched partial as possible. You can play many (very high) harmonics sul tasto, but you have to be extra careful about the exact placement of the bow.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Was talking bow, but then again pizz is also valid!

 

[Les Fret]

To be clear, is it part on an ongoing technique refinements OR are there harmonics that are a little more tricky to play?

Sure that is a normal thing. Some ring out and speak quicker and more naturally. In general the closer you come to the nut from the 12th 'fret' or go higher towards the bridge from the 12th 'fret' the harder to play the harmonic. So if you play the 12th 'fret' harmonic that's the easiest one, but the 5th 'fret' one is more difficult to speak. That goes for pizz. For bowing it is a bit easier to have them speak. For bowing the same thing applies but to a lesser extend.

 

[jj.833]

What could also help is to realize that most natural harmonics are not on the same place where the in-tune tone is. The b on G string is slightly lower (closer to the nut) than the clear B tone. And so on.

I once drafted a theoretical harmonics map. There's so much information that it's probably unreadable to anyone but me, but feel free to try below.

Also, look into Simandl 2, close to the end there are few very nice bowing harmonics excersises.

 

[Sean Riddle]

The first few partials are pretty easy to sound. When you get above the 7th partial things can get a bit tough, but practice will solve any issues. What Don mentioned pretty much nails it on the head for technique. Speed and lightness of the bow is crucial, as well as solid intonation unless you want to play a multi phonic. And of course playing way closer the bridge. There's a fundamental/harmonic I V I exercise I warm up with sometimes from Mark Dresser's Guts instruction video that goes from first position up to the octave harmonic.

Something a lot of bassists don't know is that every equal tempered note on the bass has a harmonic that corresponds with it. I took a lesson with Mark Dresser two years ago and that first thing we worked on. Another thing to consider is that a lot of the same harmonics exist on both sides of the 1st partial, thus creating mirror images of each other. So you can play some of those Bottesinni harmonics in the lower register (just doesn't work well with the music). But with understanding the mirror image, you can do some of the Scodanibbio stuff of transitioning from a lower fingered tone to a higher harmonic without needing to shift up into thumb position.

I do want to counter that a lot of natural harmonics do in fact line up with perfectly equal tempered fingered tones. You just need to be in tune. Double bass has a wealth of harmonics due to its long string length. Check out Guts if you haven't because Dresser includes an amazing harmonics chart that graphs every harmonic that exists from half position to the end of the fingerboard. We have some sounds that other string players can't execute.

 

[Co.]

I do want to counter that a lot of natural harmonics do in fact line up with perfectly equal tempered fingered tones.

Not really. Some are pretty close, but other than the octave harmonics, and only those, approaching the bridge, none line up with equal tempered tones in a truely mathematically correct way.

Equal temperament is mathematically not realated to ratios. Harmonics are rational divisions of the string.

But I must admit, this is really splitting hairs.

 

[Scott Lynch]

Not really. Some are pretty close, but other than the octave harmonics, and only those, approaching the bridge, none line up with equal tempered tones in a truely mathematically correct way.

Equal temperament is mathematically not realated to ratios. Harmonics are rational divisions of the string.

But I must admit, this is really splitting hairs.

Practically speaking, I think it's important to understand that if using stopped or fingered notes (or 'frets' in the case of BG harmonics) as a reference for where the harmonics are, that strategy will only take you so far. It is useful up to a point, though.

I remember many years ago, working on Portrait of Tracy out of some Jaco transcription book, and seeing the tab notated in decimals for certain harmonics - "2.3" or "2.6", etc.

 

[Sean Riddle]

Not really. Some are pretty close, but other than the octave harmonics, and only those, approaching the bridge, none line up with equal tempered tones in a truely mathematically correct way.

Equal temperament is mathematically not realated to ratios. Harmonics are rational divisions of the string.

But I must admit, this is really splitting hairs.

This chart covers the natural harmonics fond on equal tempered notes on the double bass. Mark Dresser has done invaluable research on harmonics on the double bass, and his reputation should back up the info on this chart. I'll keep this up for a bit. The logic is pretty simple for this. If you play an A perfectly in tune on the G string in half position and then play a harmonic above that note, you get the 9th partial. If you next play an A#/Bb perfectly in tune on the G string and then play a harmonic above that note, you get the 6th partial. And so on and so forth. If you're finger isn't exactly where it was when it played a fingered note, yes you're not going to that specific partial that relates to that equal tempered tone. But if it stays in the same place, you're guaranteed going to get that harmonic.

 

[Co.]

This chart covers the natural harmonics fond on equal tempered notes on the double bass. Mark Dresser has done invaluable research on harmonics on the double bass, and his reputation should back up the info on this chart. I'll keep this up for a bit. The logic is pretty simple for this. If you play an A perfectly in tune on the G string in half position and then play a harmonic above that note, you get the 9th partial. If you next play an A#/Bb perfectly in tune on the G string and then play a harmonic above that note, you get the 6th partial. And so on and so forth. If you're finger isn't exactly where it was when it played a fingered note, yes you're not going to that specific partial that relates to that equal tempered tone. But if it stays in the same place, you're guaranteed going to get that harmonic.

The chart is a simplification. It works up to a certain point, but beyond that, you have to be more acurate. Why not be more acurate in the first place?
A on the G string is a ratio of 1:9, so it is already off 4 cents. No big deal.
Bb on the G string as 1:6 is already off +16 cents. (Just minor third)
B on the G string 1:5 is off -14 cents. (Just major third)
F on the G string 4:9 is off +18 cents. (Just minor third over just fifth)
That is a big deal, at least for my ears.
There is no point in using rational numbers and equal temperament at the same time, unless as a simplification.

I'm pretty sure, Mark won't argue with that. Just ask him.

 

[Scott Lynch]

This chart covers the natural harmonics fond on equal tempered notes on the double bass. Mark Dresser has done invaluable research on harmonics on the double bass, and his reputation should back up the info on this chart. I'll keep this up for a bit. The logic is pretty simple for this. If you play an A perfectly in tune on the G string in half position and then play a harmonic above that note, you get the 9th partial. If you next play an A#/Bb perfectly in tune on the G string and then play a harmonic above that note, you get the 6th partial. And so on and so forth. If you're finger isn't exactly where it was when it played a fingered note, yes you're not going to that specific partial that relates to that equal tempered tone. But if it stays in the same place, you're guaranteed going to get that harmonic.

I just checked the chart out and tried to get the harmonics and indeed, with the right bow placement, I was able to get all the ones shown on the chart. This is fascinating, @Sean Riddle , and I definitely learned something new today. Thanks for sharing!

I have a background in brass instruments (horn and trumpet) which demand at least a basic understanding of the harmonic series. @Co. does make a valid point that any harmonics other than the fundamental and its octaves are going to be at least slightly out of tune with their equally tempered 'equivalents'. Some are worse than others - for example, the 7th harmonic is really something like a quarter tone between the major 6th and minor 7th (+ a couple of octaves) above the fundamental. Mr. Dresser appears to have it notated as such in his chart.

The chart is a simplification. It works up to a certain point, but beyond that, you have to be more acurate. Why not be more acurate in the first place?

Again, I think it's a practical consideration. One can clearly see from @jj.833 's chart that the nodes of many of the harmonics in Dresser's chart do not line up perfectly with the reference notes ("fund." on the chart). Most, maybe nearly all bassists, however, have primarily mapped out the fingerboard, or rather the string, based on equally tempered half steps, and such I think that Dresser's use of these as a guide is perhaps the best way to bridge these two maps of the fingerboard together.

As far as how 'in tune' these notes are or not, relative to ones needs - thankfully this is some esoteric, nerdy stuff, and not standard bass knowledge that is a requirement for an average gig, at least for me. One has liberty to employ these notes and techniques as one sees fit. (Why sir... actually I meant to do that!)

Now what really gets me is how the math and physics works for some of these harmonics. Like, how is it possible to get the "A" above where the F would be on the G string? I'm baffled.

 

[Co.]

Now what really gets me is how the math and physics works for some of these harmonics. Like, how is it possible to get the "A" above where the F would be on the G string? I'm baffled.

The "A" is the ninth partial of the G string, so if you divide the string in 9 equal parts, you get an "A" on every node.

9 is 3 times 3, so you can also see it as the 3rd partial of the third partial. Try playing the "A" harmonic over "F" with your 4th finger while simultaniously having your first finger on "D" (3rd partial). It is the same pitch, because both share the some of the same nodes.

Not everybody expects the 9th partial at the "F" position. Almost nobody.
Scodanibbio for example wants an "F" (7th partial) in the "F" position.
Who is right? Scodanibbio or Dresser? 30 cent down or 20 cent up? These positions are a quarter tone apart!
It is only a notational convention. Notes on paper are symbols, that only approximate the intended pitches and often leave room for interpretation, when it comes to harmonics.

 

[Scott Lynch]

The "A" is the ninth partial of the G string, so if you divide the string in 9 equal parts, you get an "A" on every node.

9 is 3 times 3, so you can also see it as the 3rd partial of the third partial. Try playing the "A" harmonic over "F" with your 4th finger while simultaniously having your first finger on "D" (3rd partial). It is the same pitch, because both share the some of the same nodes.

Ah - got it! Now it makes perfect sense.

Not everybody expects the 9th partial at the "F" position. Almost nobody.
Scodanibbio for example wants an "F" (7th partial) in the "F" position.
Who is right? Scodanibbio or Dresser? 30 cent down or 20 cent up? These positions are a quarter tone apart!
It is only a notational convention. Notes on paper are symbols, that only approximate the intended pitches and often leave room for interpretation, when it comes to harmonics.

Agreed that conventional notation comes up short when trying to understand these concepts, and that it can potentially be the source of some frustration. I looked at @jj.833 's chart again and noticed that some of the harmonics are marked as being a certain number of cents flat from the referenced tone.

 

[Les Fret]

It's getting really mathematical here...not for me.

 

[Who da Ville]

The higher the partial # of the harmonic, the more accurately (and lightly) the finger needs to be placed, AND - the contact point of the bow needs to move drastically toward the bridge, AND - the bow speed needs to increase.
This is the short explanation.

Well put. Thanks for that.


I'd like to think everyone for their thoughtful input to this question. I've been working on similar questions for a while, & this helps. I didn't know quite how to phrase the question, so thanks also to the OP for getting it going.

No criticism to anyone, but this discussion is still a bit fractured for me to fully comprehend.

What I'm still looking for is a basic elementary lesson on DB harmonics that puts all (most) of this this into a logical format. I know, this probably is the subject for a full semester graduate-level college course; inquiring minds want to know...

Does anyone have a link to such a thing that they could share?

 

[Don Kasper]

Here is a page showing most of the Natural Harmonics and where to find them, and how to "write" them....I wrote this up for a Composer friend of mine, years ago.
From LOWEST to HIGHEST... "Sounds....Written".
Let me know if you have questions.
Thanks.

 

[Co.]

Great chart. For someone, just starting with playing harmonics, it might be easier, to play them at the end of the fingerboard. There, they speak better, have more dynamic range and are less confusing in location.
Good places to start are the harmonics in Dittersdorf and the Bottesini metodo, although it is written at pitch, which might be confusing again.

Here is a page showing most of the Natural Harmonics and where to find them, and how to "write" them....I wrote this up for a Composer friend of mine, years ago.
From LOWEST to HIGHEST... "Sounds....Written".
Let me know if you have questions.
Thanks.
View attachment 3804562

 

[Don Kasper]

Great chart. For someone, just starting with playing harmonics, it might be easier, to play them at the end of the fingerboard. There, they speak better, have more dynamic range and are less confusing in location.
Good places to start are the harmonics in Dittersdorf and the Bottesini metodo, although it is written at pitch, which might be confusing again.

Yes, and...Maybe - but sometimes reaching way beyond the end of the fingerboard is uncomfortable/impossible, and can deposit rosin on the LH fingers.
I like showing the harmonics approaching the Nut, and then showing the Mirror Image of that pattern on the other "half" of the string.
It remains an area of confusion for beginners, IME.
Thanks for your time and expertise.