Hartke, Kustom, Line 6 or Ashdown?

[Gossamer]

Hi there talkbass! New guy here

So anyway, I'm a guitarist primarily but recently I've decided to start playing bass due to the fact that locally there's quite a lack of bassists around, and I've been filling in with local bands to play bass (on borrowed equipment) for a couple of years now. (I also work with a local PA company working both on stage and behind the mixer, and with top local bands as a guitar and live technician - but that's just extra info so you know a bit about me).

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Last week I've purchased an Ampeg B-410HLF (4ohm, 450W) and now I'm looking for a bass head. Basically, I need:

- a head with enough power to slightly overpower the Ampeg 4ohm 450W 410 cab (preferably SLIGHTLY above 450W to drive the speakers hard)

- onboard compressor (NOT limiter)

- something with a good tube-ish drive and good mids. I don't about care much about hi-fi bass tone (but I think a good amp should be versatile).

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After much deliberation I’ve come to these amps:

- Hartke LH500 (no separate gain/master volume, no detailed EQ (only 3-band), however it is a hybrid and has 500W at 4ohm - goodie)

- Kustom Groove 600HD (it’s perfect, 600W stable at 2ohm… but I need another 4ohm cab to tap out 600W at 2ohm. However I think it’ll be perfectly loud at 4ohm with 1 cabinet and it’s future-proof: if I get another 4ohm cab in the future I can hook up both cabs no problem. However I haven’t seen any reviews online)

- Ashdown MAG600H (a good 575W at 4ohm, 5 band EQ, onboard compression, excellent mids – beautiful. I’ve heard a lot of good stuff about Ashdown, however the 2 reviews on HC are crap and I’m slightly concerned.)

- Line 6 LowDown HD400 (slightly underpowered at 400W 4ohm, but it’s extremely versatile: 5 models, compressor, filter, octaver, chorus + bass synth… and other stuff – it’s bursting with features. However, same with the Kustom, I haven’t found any reviews.)

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Any opinion or advice? I’m really torn between these amps. Price-wise they’re almost all in the same range. However, I live in Malta (EU) and I can’t try them out. I’ll have to either purchase from Thomann (DE) or Dolphin Music (UK).

 

[TheRockinRoadie]

I personally am an Ashdown user, and i think the MAG600H is a great amp, and it will probably be the most suited to the cabinet you have bought.

Digital anything (to me anyway), spells trouble, so i'd avoid the Line 6.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I own both Hartke and Ashdown stuff. Both are generally considered a good bang for the buck. There are some Ashdown users who have had some failures with stuff, but I'm not one of them. I don't know anything about the Kustom or Line 6 stuff.

BTW - You aren't going to need all of that power to drive the speakers hard. If the cab is rated at 450watts.....I wouldn't try running that much power into 'em continuously. If you are looking for some natural distortion or break-up, a hybrid with a tube preamp might help.

 

[Revvv]

I'm a Hartke guy. I will always push to see Hartke used. However, you need to use your ears and find out what sounds best to you.

 

[4-string]

Used Ashdown ABM500, if you can find one within budget. Amazing tube overdrive.

 

[Gossamer]

thanks for the replies

@ TheRockinRoadie: any experience regards digital gear and/or Line 6?

@ sevenyearsdown: I won't be using the head with the volume on full blast (hopefully lol). My reasoning is that gear is usually rated down slightly to minimise damage to the speakers. By using a little bit of common sense I won't be hurting the speakers, but I'll have a bit of power reserved if I'll get another cab (even though that means getting a 2ohm stable head, which eliminates all except the Kustom head).

@ Revv: my current situation dictates that I cannot try any gear before I buy it. I'll have to go by common sense, reviews and recommendations. Sucks, I know.

 

[Doodaddy]

I loved the Kustom 1200HD I had.

 

[Gossamer]

@ Doodaddy: what's your experience with the Kustom 1200HD head?

Did you eventually sell it or replace it?

 

[Igital]

Hi!

I can't speak for the Line 6 Lowdown 400 in particular but I've owned the Lowdown 150 combo for many years and it has exactly the same control layout and features. I'm very satisfied with it. It seems to be very well constructed, and has taken quite severe beatings and abuse without any issues at all. It fell down a long flight of stairs without a scratch and functioned perfectly afterwards! It's loud for a 150w combo.

Regarding the modelling amps, IMO they're mostly a useful basis for dialling in different sounds and fun to experiment with, but not very close sounding to the amps they're modelled after. Might function better with a better cab than the 12" in the combo. IMO the B-15 seems especially far from what I would expect.

The compressor is OK and I use it sometimes, but the effects are of limited value since they lack sufficient adjustment possibilities. For me they can't replace the good old pedals, at least not for gig use. Using the synth modelling can get you some really weird sounds out of this thing, but nothing I would gig with (that depends of course on your music style). When I play around with it on practice it sometimes put a big grin on my bandmates' faces and sometimes makes them throw beer cans at me...

Built in tuner is a big +, but the ability to store presets is perhaps the feature that has been most useful for me. I also miss a pre/post switch on the DI, maybe that's changed in the 400?

 

[Gossamer]

Hi Igital. Thanks for the feedback.

Does the LowDown FEEL like a bass amp though? I've had some solid state equipment for guitar, and they just feel like transistor power amps with a couple of guitar speakers. They don't feel like guitar amps at all.

Is it the same with the Line 6? Have you gigged with it, or compared it to other amps? I'm curious.

Excuse my english, I'm tired cos I'm just back from work, and english isn't my primary language

 

[johnk_10]

its not on your list, but i'd recommend a GK 700RB or a 1001RBII. Line6 and Hartke amps never did it for me. Genz-Benz's are nice too (i have a GB GBE600) but IMO, GK's have more low end and growl nicely.

 

[Greyvagabond]

Those LH500s are great amps; they don't have compression, but the tube-front end should squish the signal in a very pleasant way. I'd stay away from Line6 stuff, but the Kustom and Ashdown are fine amps in their own right. The Hartke is a bit more "musical" to my ears, though. Very pleasing tone!

 

[~ignited~wings~]

I'd personally rate that Kustom inherently closer to the hi-fi side than the warm and growly side. This statement comes from my testing of the 1200HD though, and the higher wattage and headroom may have something to do with it.

 

[Lynwood James]

I'm going to toss another vote in for GK, especially a 700RB or 1001RBII as johnk_10 mentioned, based on my own experience. Here's the reasoning.

As far as the Line6, having played a couple of them in the store, I have to say that I've never had any good experiences with modeling. My local mentors have always hated them though, so that might have altered my perceptions. There is a reason that a lot of people here invest in pedalboards...something like a VT Bass just does a waaay better job imitating other amps than a digital modeling amp does. Same thing with the compressor. I'm sure that the Ashdown compressor circuit is okay, but I bet that there are much better pedal/rack compressors that are still well within your price range.

So as far as the amps you mentioned, I've never loved Hartke stuff. My neighbor had an older Hartke and it reminded me of the solid-state fender bass amps I've played...there's just no character, a general muddy hollowness. I don't have any experience with the specific model you mentioned though, so who knows. I have seen others have bad experiences with Ashdown stuff being less than reliable, so that's another knock on Ashdown. While the GK sound can be described as a little hi-fi (or super hi-fi if you're an Ampeg guy), the Kustom amps are Really hi-fi. On the other hand, if you're willing to put up with their shortcomings, a 1200HD might be a Very good buy. I've seen them for $350-ish in the 'States and that seems like a very good price (don't have any idea if the same price applies out in the EU).

The reason I'd push on a 700RB is because it's comparable to the amps you've mentioned, yet it's got some very versatile rock tones and it also has some onboard grit that might sound a little better than just pushing your drivers. A lot of people say that GK amps don't really get warm...and while that's definitely true when you compare them to true tube-preamps, for their price range, I'd say they get plenty warm. And on that note, if you have the money and you'd like to spend it, moving up to a Genz-Benz, Eden, or other amp with a tube pre might be right up your alley.

Just my two cents.

 

[Gossamer]

I'm going to toss another vote in for GK, especially a 700RB or 1001RBII as johnk_10 mentioned, based on my own experience. Here's the reasoning.

As far as the Line6, having played a couple of them in the store, I have to say that I've never had any good experiences with modeling. My local mentors have always hated them though, so that might have altered my perceptions. There is a reason that a lot of people here invest in pedalboards...something like a VT Bass just does a waaay better job imitating other amps than a digital modeling amp does. Same thing with the compressor. I'm sure that the Ashdown compressor circuit is okay, but I bet that there are much better pedal/rack compressors that are still well within your price range.

So as far as the amps you mentioned, I've never loved Hartke stuff. My neighbor had an older Hartke and it reminded me of the solid-state fender bass amps I've played...there's just no character, a general muddy hollowness. I don't have any experience with the specific model you mentioned though, so who knows. I have seen others have bad experiences with Ashdown stuff being less than reliable, so that's another knock on Ashdown. While the GK sound can be described as a little hi-fi (or super hi-fi if you're an Ampeg guy), the Kustom amps are Really hi-fi. On the other hand, if you're willing to put up with their shortcomings, a 1200HD might be a Very good buy. I've seen them for $350-ish in the 'States and that seems like a very good price (don't have any idea if the same price applies out in the EU).

The reason I'd push on a 700RB is because it's comparable to the amps you've mentioned, yet it's got some very versatile rock tones and it also has some onboard grit that might sound a little better than just pushing your drivers. A lot of people say that GK amps don't really get warm...and while that's definitely true when you compare them to true tube-preamps, for their price range, I'd say they get plenty warm. And on that note, if you have the money and you'd like to spend it, moving up to a Genz-Benz, Eden, or other amp with a tube pre might be right up your alley.

Just my two cents.

Thanks man! Really really appreciate it.

I wasn't going to consider GK, since I've heard plenty of local GK Backline heads and I don't really dig the tone. I've only heard an RB once, and I didn't like it much either. Sounded to me like the typical non-Ampeg rock bass tone, which I'm not much in love with.

In that light I considered the Hartke LH500 because of the tube pre, which I think I would like.

Ashdown clips sounded good to me too, pity about the reliability, but I liked the fact that it had a compressor as I've head enough of lugging equipment around (I work as a roadie and experience has taught me that more equipment means more stuff that can go wrong on stage - I'd rather have an onboard compressor than a pedal that can refuse to function properly).

I liked the Kustom Groove 600 head simply because it ran stable at 2ohm delivering 600W. I have a 4ohm cab, which I could use at 4ohm, and adding another 4ohm Ampeg cab wouldn't pose a problem to the Kustom head. Thanks for pointing out the fact that it's a hi-fi head, I imagined it would be the opposite. However I think I'd rather have a hi-fi head I can muddy up, than a muddy head I can't clear up. Right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a total tit here, first time buying a bass amp!)

...Which brings us to the Line 6. Which I only considered because I've filled in with bands of different styles, so I thought multiple models mean many sounds, which could be useful. I've owned some digital guitar gear, and I passionately regret the purchases. I guess Line 6 is out of the question.



In conclusion I think I'll go with the Ampeg B-410HLF (400W @ 4ohm - which I already own) and either the Kustom Groove 600HD (600W at 2ohm) or Ashdown MAG-600H (575W @ 4ohm).

One thing I'm concerned about is that the Kustom head might be too powerful for the cab. However, if I purchase the Ashdown head and in the future decide to buy an extra 410 or 115 cab I'll have to buy another head which runs at 2ohm.

My point is, is a 400W cab with 575W (Ashdown) being fed into it suitable for live playing (in clubs with around max. 800 patrons)? Or should I go with the Kustom head just in case I buy another cab in the future?

Any ideas?

 

[Gossamer]

Btw, this is the kind of tone that really really creams me



The video displays an Ampeg setup, he also plays Ampeg live, but I have no idea what was used in the studio (presumably Ampeg?). I wonder if a hi-fi head can be muddied up to output a similar tone...

 

[PBass101]

My point is, is a 400W cab with 575W (Ashdown) being fed into it suitable for live playing (in clubs with around max. 800 patrons)? Or should I go with the Kustom head just in case I buy another cab in the future?

Any ideas?

If you're playing a gig with 800 listeners, you really need to use the PA that should be available to amplify the bass to the audience, at which point your backline is only going to serve as a stage monitor. An Ashdown head into a 410 cab will do that job as well as carry the room for smaller gigs.

 

[johnk_10]

sounds like he's playing direct thru a Urei 1176 to me.

 

[ishouldbeking]

Personally I'd go with the Ashdown out of those options. I play an Ashdown ABM500 evoII (the new III models have built in compressors, i believe) and I'm very happy with it. Not as familiar with the Mag series, but the general Ashdown voicing sounds like its right up your alley (warm / fat, nice tubey drive). Personally I kind of doubt the ashdown compressor is anything to get too excited about, I've played with their compressor pedal which I believe is the same circuit and it's nothing special. If you really want a compressor you're probably better off buying a particular pedal or rack unit that fits your exact needs (like the BBE compressor, demeter, maxon... i.e. one that's actually worth using).

Another recommendation would be to look at something like a Markbass Little Mark, which is lightweight, fairly powerful and warm. I haven't played one on my own, but i've heard them and quite liked them. not as much drive available as an ashdown, but still a very nice head at a good price. If I ever destroy my ashdown beyond repair I'll probably go with a Little Mark and get the tube drive from my Tech 21 VT Bass.

And yeah, as others have said, GK stuff is pretty great too. I played a GK 2001RB for years... the trick is, particularly if you want that nice warm driven tone, not to get the most powerful model. The lower powered GK's can "hit-the-rails" much easier, giving you that nice warm overdriven tone. The 400RB and 700RB are plenty loud enough for most applications. That said my 2001RB was total overkill, and it was harder to get it out of that sterile solid state territory.

 

[PBass101]

If he's already going direct into the PA for large venues I don't see much sense in a 600w head driving two 4 ohm cabinets.

Gossamer, you just need to figure out what volume needs you'll eventually have to meet with your backline rig. Nobody here can decide what arrangement of cabinets you're eventually going to need for gig purposes.

My thoughts on your situation are that tone is more important than power availability. If you're considering the Kustom head and a second cabinet, then you have to know that 600w into two 4 ohm cabinets has the potential to get pretty damn loud, and if you don't plan on running your backline at arena levels, that's alot of output potential you're never really going to even use.

Tone-wise, if you want old-school Ampeg tone, you're already a long-ways there with the Ampeg cabinet. Why haven't you considered an Ampeg head? Ashdown amplifiers are nice but I'd stay far away from their cabinets loaded with the blue speakers. They're vintage as in "total lack of clarity and definition" vintage.