Have scales ruined music?

[williamk]

perhaps she meant that a in proper walking-bass line, you sometimes "jump" to a further not rather than just always going to the "next note" of a scale, thus not just going up and down scales like someone mentioned before. In any case, scales have not ruined music, OP you should change that flame-worthy thread title!

 

[Bobby King]

Carol does take a more chordal approach. I think she is warning against the "square" quality of simply moving up and down scales particularly when walking. Chromatic approach notes to chord tones add tension and an overall feeling of movement and targeting chord tones particularly roots, thirds, and fifths defines the harmony while leaving space for the comping and the melody.

By the way, roundwound bass strings ruined music . . . That's a joke for those that don't know

I agree. I think that it was just Carol's way of saying that the person plays too mechanically, not enough from the ears and from the heart. Of course, scales are a central and important part of all music as a foundation, so I don't think she's saying that anything is wrong with scales per se, but it's what they're used for that's important.

BTW, I play upright and electric bass, and I love using gut strings on upright. Some of us might say that steel strings ruined music . But seriously, I love me some electric flatwounds too!

 

[countrybassist]

That's probably not what she meant. But that would be analogous to saying that the alphabet has ruined literature.

 

[nortonrider]

The last time I saw the Flecktones, every one of Bela's solos seemed to consist entirely of him running scales up and down the neck.

It got monotonous pretty quick.

 

[Febs]

That comment from Carol came up in the context of an interview where she was talking about using chord tones and chromatic approaches in the context of playing bebop.

That's just jazz stuff that all the players know how to teach and how to do. Not so much today, because it's non-chordal today, it's note scales, see. Notes scales don't get it because they will ruin your ear and your fingers get used to playing scales and you can't find those notes. [Plays example of a scale] You're not hearing this. [plays example of chord] You're not hearing these notes. you need to hear the intervals of the chordal notes that you can use including the substitute chord notes. Chords are formed by using every other note of the scale.

Nobody back in the 50s played note scales. Note scales are traveling notes. But mostly in jazz you're going to use chromatics. See, I'm chromaticizing. (Laughs) Chromaticizing. Is that a word?

[Plays example] See, that's all F. [Plays example] This is F. [Plays another example] I'm playing off these chord notes. Same pattern of these [plays another example]. See, now I'm playing off of these chordal notes. You don't get that from note scales.

It used to be that we'd play bebop every night. If you weren't working every night, you'd go out and jam somewhere, in the 50s. Occasionally, I'd be playing with a group, and someone would ask to sit in, and it's, "oh no, don't let him sit in, he plays scales." (Laughs). Because we all knew that you can't find those jazz patterns [plays chord-based example] that's not a scale pattern, see?​

For those having trouble understanding her point, watch the interview and listen to her examples, and the context of her statement should be pretty clear: BASS PLAYER: Carol Kaye Interview - YouTube

 

[ksandvik]

Learn scales so know how they exist and how they sounds like. Then stop thinking about them when playing.

 

[fryBASS]

Precisely. If you are playing a G-major blues, you cannot start start wanking around the G scale, as if anything in the scale fit at any time. Rather, you need to play G chord tones over the I chord, D over the IV chord, E over V chord--using appropriate passing tones between chords.

Yes, yes, I know that "The chords come from the scale. You have to know the scale to know the chords." True, and Carol wouldn't disagree. But when you are playing over the I chord in a G-major blues, pedaling a C sounds like ass. Yes, it is in the scale, but it is really only a passing tone from B to D.

That's what Carol Kaye means. And, it (like just about everything she says) is really good advice.

This.

 

[heavytrash13]

Autotune ruined music

 

[Woodsbass]

Why is this in the Basses forum?

 

[Ben Noblit]

In the exact same way that words ruined language.

 

[conqr]

Autotune ruined music

^thet right thur - yesiree. Whole world of hurt opened up by autotune abuse.



Regarding CK's comment, I also understood her to simply mean don't just 'play scales' as it were.

 

[Kwesi]

Precisely. If you are playing a G-major blues, you cannot start start wanking around the G scale, as if anything in the scale fit at any time. Rather, you need to play G chord tones over the I chord, D over the IV chord, E over V chord--using appropriate passing tones between chords.

Yes, yes, I know that "The chords come from the scale. You have to know the scale to know the chords." True, and Carol wouldn't disagree. But when you are playing over the I chord in a G-major blues, pedaling a C sounds like ass. Yes, it is in the scale, but it is really only a passing tone from B to D.

That's what Carol Kaye means. And, it (like just about everything she says) is really good advice.

With the exception of extended chords aren't most chords 3-4 notes? Does that mean that over a G-major blues you should only be playing one of those 4 tones over the I? Should I not use all of the notes in the G-major scale?

 

[Root 5]

What Carol Kaye was talking about is this: Musicians today are obsessed with modes. If you go to Berklee or BIT or GIT - you're going to be bombarded with modes. But the old-time jazz masters like Art Tatum, George Shearing and Oscar Peterson NEVER thought about modes; they thought in terms of chords when soloing.

If you flip through any guitar or bass magazine today, the lesson sections and song descriptions are plastered with mixolydian this and locrian that and dorian this over here. It's overdone.

 

[atticpenny]

Root notes. Chords. Arpeggios. Modes. Pentatonics. Harmonics. Personally, I use them all.

 

[Root 5]

With the exception of extended chords aren't most chords 3-4 notes? Does that mean that over a G-major blues you should only be playing one of those 4 tones over the I? Should I not use all of the notes in the G-major scale?

A chord can be as few as two notes. A basic chord "Triad" is comprised of a root, a 3rd, and a fifth tone; all of these notes are based on a scale. So a G-major triad would be made up of G-B-D. They are the 1st, 3rd, and 5th tones in a G-major scale.

If you are playing over the 1-chord in a blues, it sounds good to add the 6th tone which in this case would be an E. But there's a whole lot more to this.

 

[Kwesi]

A chord can be as few as two notes. A basic chord "Triad" is comprised of a root, a 3rd, and a fifth tone; all of these notes are based on a scale. So a G-major triad would be made up of G-B-D. They are the 1st, 3rd, and 5th tones in a G-major scale.

If you are playing over the 1-chord in a blues, it sounds good to add the 6th tone which in this case would be an E. But there's a whole lot more to this.

So you would want to avoid the other tones of the G-major scale? The 2nd, 4th and 7th?

 

[Matt R.]

She's talking more about an approach to improvisation where you're thinking more in terms of arpeggios and approach notes vs a purely scalar perspective. She didn't say that scales have "ruined" music, they're obviously one of the many building blocks of music.

I swear that she and Jeff Berlin must be the most misinterpreted musians around.

Yeah, this right here. Furthermore, the idea that music is "ruined" is ludicrous to begin with.

 

[bubinga5]

With the exception of extended chords aren't most chords 3-4 notes? Does that mean that over a G-major blues you should only be playing one of those 4 tones over the I? Should I not use all of the notes in the G-major scale?

you can imo play other notes within a scale, but the basis should be on, or around those chords tones.... just like some colors work with other colors and some are not as strong.... at the end of the day your fitting your bass notes to compliment a chord being played,, thats the bottom line...

three notes can be very cool over changes,when your talking inversions also..

 

[Kwesi]

you can imo play other notes within a scale, but the basis should be on, or around those chords tones.... just like some colors work with other colors and some are not as strong.... at the end of the day your fitting your bass notes to compliment a chord being played,, thats the bottom line...

three notes can be very cool over changes,when your talking inversions also..

So is the whole issue of chord tones vs. scalar tones just about movement? Moving "around" instead "simply up and down"? Because other than that I see no difference. While I'm no theory genius I've been around folks who are for years and I still don't see the mechanical difference.

When you say that ones playing should be centered around the chord tones do you mean it would be best to play the chord tones on the major beats or that they should be the "focus" when playing over that chord? That would clarify some things for me.

 

[BassBrass]

This goes back to the days when melody was king and chords changed in support of the melody. Nowadays it's possible to be a musician and never play "changes" because music is about the beat and pentatonic scales make the groove. Naturally, chord playing skills would atrophy in the bass playing population when they're never or seldom used.