Having a custom fretless built, input please.

[Buskman]

But I'm no expert, can someone describe the difference between ash, maple and alder?

From the Warmoth site:

Alder (Alnus rubra):
Alder is used extensively for bodies because of its lighter weight (about four pounds for a Strat® body) and its full sound. Its closed grain makes this wood easy to finish. Alder's natural color is a light tan with little or no distinct grain lines. It looks good with a sunburst or a solid color finish. Because of its fine characteristics and lower price, Alder is our most popular wood and it grows all around us here in Washington State. The tone is reputed to be most balanced with equal doses of lows, mids and highs. Alder has been the mainstay for Fender bodies for many years and its characteristic tone has been a part of some of the most enduring pieces of modern day contemporary music.

Ash (Fraxinus americana):
We have two very different types of Ash: Northern Hard Ash and Swamp Ash (Southern Soft Ash).

Northern Hard Ash is very hard, heavy and dense. A Strat® body will normally weigh 5 lbs. and up. Its density contributes to a bright tone and a long sustain which makes it very popular. Its color is creamy, but it also tends to have heartwood featuring pink to brown tints. The grain pores are open and it takes a lot of finish to fill them up.

Swamp Ash is a prized wood for many reasons. It is a fairly light weight wood which makes it easily distinguishable from Hard Ash. A Strat® body will normally weigh under 5 lbs. Many of the 50's Fenders were made of Swamp Ash. The grain is open and the color is creamy. This wood is a very nice choice for clear finishes. Swamp Ash is our second most popular wood. It is a very musical wood offering a very nice balance of brightness and warmth with a lot of "pop".

Maple
(Acer saccharum-Hard Maple):
We offer two types of Maple: Eastern Hard Maple (hard rock maple) and Western Soft Maple (big leaf maple).

Hard Maple is a very hard, heavy and dense wood. This is the same wood that we use on our necks. The grain is closed and very easy to finish. The tone is very bright with long sustain and a lot of bite. This wood cannot be dyed. It looks great with clear or transparent color finishes.

Soft Maple
(Acer macrophyllum):
Western Maple grows all around us here in Washington state. It is usually much lighter weight than Hard Maple but it features the same white color. It has bright tone with good bite and attack, but is not brittle like the harder woods can be. Our flame (fiddle-back) and quilted bodies are Western Maple. This type of maple works great with dye finishes.

Hope this helps!

 

[stflbn]

Sounds to me like maybe you need to play many more basses and nail down what your personal tastes really are and what your needs really are for the bass before dumping money into the custom bass.

Otherwise you'll be back here 3 months or less after the bass is completed trying to peddle it for a fraction of what you paid for it.


Just my tip based on the experience of others here in the past.


.

 

[smperry]

Maple is fine depending on the body shape...a all maple bass shaped like a Jazz or Precision or MusicMan will be heavy, but a smaller bodied bass will be ok. I tend to like maple-bodied basses, including ones I've owned - few Rickenbackers, a Ritter, a Hondo Longhorn, etc. Also like the maple bodied-Spectors. The maple that goes on the body would be softer than the neck maple. For your needs, I think it'd be fine. But you could go with ash if you like. Or if you are going neck through, maple neck/alder wings is a nice combination.

For pickup choices, I like the idea of a reverse P in the neck position and J in the bridge location. An Aguilar OBP1 preamp might be nice.

Most importantly, play as many different basses as you can before ordering.

M

 

[Buskman]

Invalid Link Removed

 

[René_Julien]

Hope this helps!

Helps a lot. Thanks man.

The idea of full on maple is winning me over again. (My original idea before I went to the luthier.)

 

[amper]

Maple makes a great wood for a solid body. It *can* be heavy, but it doesn't have to be a killer. My Warwick Corvette Proline has a solid flamed maple body (western, "big leaf", soft maple [acer macrophyllum], not eastern "rock" maple [acer saccharum]). A rock maple body will indeed be heavy, and bright sounding, and is a good candidate for chambering due to the weight.

Alder and swamp ash are fairly similar in tone, less bright than maple of either kind, and less weight, certainly, than rock maple. Swamp ash looks much better than alder, if you're going for a transparent finish. Swamp ash is the standard of bass woods. If you go with swamp ash, make sure you get a piece without worm tracks.

I prefer bolt-on necks. They can be worked on much easier than neck-through designs. Sustain is not a problem. I would recommend gaboon ebony (the truly black stuff) for your fingerboard.

Pickups? I've always loved the Jazz Bass and Music Man types, but I also wouldn't rule out a soap/soap config, plus every bass I buy from now on will have piezo installed. In any case, I would go with a high quality passive pickup setup with a high quality active preamp that can be switched out if need be.

34" v. 35"--35" will theoretically give you more solid tone, all things being equal, but they're slightly harder to play, and your string choice may be limited. One advantage is that with a fretless, more length gives you more wiggle room for your intonation.

Shape? My favorites, among traditional bass guitars, are the StingRay, the PRS Gary Grainger, the Lakland, and the Warwick Fortress and Corvette. I'm currently working on a couple of designs of my own that are heavily influenced by PRS guitars and Rickenbacker guitars (not basses). I'm also really fond of the Roscoe SKB, and Matt Pulchinella's designs. One thing to think about is for the sake of strap balance, it's important to get that upper horn somewhere around the 12th fret.

 

[Rumblefisher]

Personally, I think all maple is too much twang. Ash has nice snap, tight bass, but without it being annoying (not that maple is, but I played a maple body/neck bass with ebony fingerboard and My God was it annoying!)

Break it down this way:

TONEWOOD:
*This is from my experience what constitutes tonewood sound, others will have other opinions. Also, keep in mind that pickups and amp have a LOT to say about tone.

Bolt-on: Body Tonewood counts for about 70-75%
Neck accounts for 20-25%
Fretboard accounts for 5-10%

If you start with a bright sound (which, by the way, is great for extended range as it keeps the signal from turning muddy)and then surround it with bright tonewoods, guess what kind of sound you will have

If you start with a more balanced sound (ash for example can pull off snap and growl) and complement it with maple/ebony, you will have a better sounding bass in my opinion.

STRUCTURE:

Bolt-on resonates harmonic frequency at the expense of fundamental, and neck-through does the opposite. This is why you will probably hear that bolt-ons are "punchy" while neck-throughs are "compressed or focused" (not a bad thing).

SCALE LENGTH:

As far as this issue goes, I will not pretend to know more than I do, which is not a whole lot. I can say that I have owned both 35" and 34" 4 stringers, and the 34" was more comfortable (I am 5'11, 205 so it's not a build issue) and the string tension was much better on the 34". I want my strings to give a little, after all it's not a harp

PICKUPS:

These go a long way in determining how the sound of the tonewoods is interpreted or, well... picked up P is fatter, J is trebly, so PJ is a common choice for versatility. I love dual coils, since you can switch them to P or J at will... check them out.
Also, positioning the pickups in different places changes the sound. Towards the bridge = treble Towards the neck = bass

 

[René_Julien]

Really great advice you guys are giving me. I can't thank you all enough.

Sounds to me like maybe you need to play many more basses and nail down what your personal tastes really are and what your needs really are for the bass before dumping money into the custom bass.

Otherwise you'll be back here 3 months or less after the bass is completed trying to peddle it for a fraction of what you paid for it.


Just my tip based on the experience of others here in the past.


.

You are right. I have to be sober about this.

I've shown that I come to realize that my experiences are rather limited.

Although after 9 years of playin, the last 6 years of that almost only fretless I tried many basses. High-end basses and cheap basses. I resided to a cheap Yamaha RBX260F because the expensive high end basses don't fully meet my needs.

I tried a Warwick Dolphin fretless once, and that bass came pretty close. But at that time I could not spent so much money on it.
Not that I'm rich now, but a custom bass (from my local luthier) is within my price range... and that's the same price range as most popular high end basses.

But you are right, I have to think this through. And I will.

 

[DerekG]

I highly recommend spending a little time on Mike Tobias' and Roscoe's websites as well as the Roscoe Forum on Talkbass. There are LOTS of great discussions on tonewoods and the character they deliver.

FWIW, i have a mahogany-bodied fretless Roscoe and the sound is sweet, deep and fat and not very "growly." I think you do NOT want that and you do want a more aggressive tone. Alder tends to be more balanced than Ash and Ash definitely growls more than Alder. I have an ash Lakland fretted bass that really growls and an Alder bodied Tobias that's very versatile and balanced but not as aggressive as the Lakland. And yes, pickups will influence your tone a lot.

Your setup (and left and right hand technique) will also influence the tone A LOT on a fretless. Low action and light guage strings will give a lot of mwah. Higher action and higher tension strings will give more snap.

Oh, and please consider an unlined fingerboard! They look fantastic, but also musically speaking, IMHO, an unlined board forces you to rely on your ear more for intonation. Lines might be a good guide, but relying on lines alone doesn't work due to the precise (or rather imprecise) pressure point of your fingertip on the board. You have to use your ear to fine tune the placement of your finger to really be in tune -- sounds difficult but it's not really if you practice and listen! Side markers are ok

Good luck with your bass!

 

[René_Julien]

I highly recommend spending a little time on Mike Tobias' and Roscoe's websites as well as the Roscoe Forum on Talkbass. There are LOTS of great discussions on tonewoods and the character they deliver.

FWIW, i have a mahogany-bodied fretless Roscoe and the sound is sweet, deep and fat and not very "growly." I think you do NOT want that and you do want a more aggressive tone. Alder tends to be more balanced than Ash and Ash definitely growls more than Alder. I have an ash Lakland fretted bass that really growls and an Alder bodied Tobias that's very versatile and balanced but not as aggressive as the Lakland. And yes, pickups will influence your tone a lot.

Your setup (and left and right hand technique) will also influence the tone A LOT on a fretless. Low action and light guage strings will give a lot of mwah. Higher action and higher tension strings will give more snap.

Oh, and please consider an unlined fingerboard! They look fantastic, but also musically speaking, IMHO, an unlined board forces you to rely on your ear more for intonation. Lines might be a good guide, but relying on lines alone doesn't work due to the precise (or rather imprecise) pressure point of your fingertip on the board. You have to use your ear to fine tune the placement of your finger to really be in tune -- sounds difficult but it's not really if you practice and listen! Side markers are ok

Good luck with your bass!

Well, I'm playing double bass since two months so definately unlined.
I have a lot of fun training my ears to it. It's going quite well.
I'll enjoy ulined more on an electric bass, since that is still the instrument I love.

Well, in the last couple of hours I got a lot of information and opinions from TBers to think about.

And I actually come back to the original plan I had in mind before I went to the luthier.
So I am not that clueless I figure. I know what I want, just some fine-tuning.

Still unsure about the bolt-on vs. neckthrough issue.

And I have to keep everything in mind, wood choice along with pick ups.
All things must add up to the sound I want.

And some reflections on experience with basses so far.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Darkstrike]

Remember, updates, with plenty of pics!

 

[kobass]

The Pedulla Buzz bass has an all maple body. It is a neckthrough instrument (neck is three-piece maple). The fretboard is (coated) ebony. You may want to try one of these out to get an idea of the sound. If not, I would suggest trying to find some of Mark Egan's recordings. He uses a Pedulla Buzz exclusively. On some of his earlier recordings, his tone was somewhat on the bright side. His latest, "As We Speak" has a much more "organic" tone (IMHO).

Cheers,
Kevin

 

[carlos840]

Hey,
I personally think that the scale isnt that important if you play in standart tuning, it all comes down to how the bass was built!
I played some 35 that sounded worst than 34 and the opposite...
For the wood and neck, i have to say that the best fretless i ever played was a humanbase Class X, its all made of maple and has a neck through design, also, it has one of the best low B you can find and its only a 34 scale!
I think theres more to building a great bass than just wood choice, neck design and scale, its a whole and needs to work together!

 

[René_Julien]

The Pedulla Buzz bass has an all maple body. It is a neckthrough instrument (neck is three-piece maple). The fretboard is (coated) ebony. You may want to try one of these out to get an idea of the sound. If not, I would suggest trying to find some of Mark Egan's recordings. He uses a Pedulla Buzz exclusively. On some of his earlier recordings, his tone was somewhat on the bright side. His latest, "As We Speak" has a much more "organic" tone (IMHO).

Cheers,
Kevin

I live in Belgium and music stores don't carry a whole variety of brands. Only the more common stuff.
(I'm going to check out those recordings if I can.)

I didn't knew how a Pedulla was built. Sounds wonderful like you described. And that was my original idea sort of.

So it appears I can put 2 and 2 togheter.
I got confirmation that what I want will work.

Some guys gave me their honest opinions but perhaps coloured by what they want in a fretless.
It gave me something to think about and I learned from it.


Just the shape of the body is kind of a pickle.
Got someone working on that.

The rest all is 90% sure what I want, and it was what I initially had in mind.

If I would have come up with a bass now totally different then what I had in mind yesterday then I'd have doubts, and might've called the whole thing off.

But I'm excited that I know wich direction I am still going.

 

[spade2you]

The Pedulla Buzz is a great instrument, although the one I tried (many years ago) was kinda heavy. The sound was great although the B wasn't quite up to par on this particular instrument. (Could have definitely been the set-up)

Anyway, my only gripe with the Buzz is that they can be a tad heavy, no 35" scale, and no mid boost/cut.

Enter Cliff Bordwell!!!

I wanted 35" scale and a bird's eye maple fingerboard. Underneath a polyester coating, the wood choice is almost arbitrary. P and J pickups are more/less the type of pickup where you're going to get a majority of the tone from the pickup and placement. With the push/pull high/low mid knob, bass, and a treble that boosts actively and cuts passively, I'm able to cover a pretty wide range of tones from Jaco, to Egan, to thuddy P bass tones that sound vintage and almost boarder on an upright tone, even despite the roundwounds and polyester coated fingerboard. The weight? Roughly 7.5lbs, waaaaaay lighter than I remember the Pedulla being.

 

[envika]

Ric uses maple, and it sounds fine. mahogany body + maple (flame or quilted, if you want) top. i would suggest bolt-on for the same reasons your luthier suggested, but neck-through is the better choice if you like to play up the neck. unless you have very small hands, 35" is not too much different from 34"...i sure can't tell the difference.

want to try something really cool? how about double P pickups at the regular P position and near the bridge? BC rich used to use that configuration on those old basses with all the switches and they're pretty sweet.

i would like to see that in SG shape, or maybe just good ol' P.

 

[René_Julien]

Thanks for all the brainstorming guys.

With all the input recieved I now know what would suit me.
Considering all, and after learning more, it all boils down to the original idea I had in mind.

From all the advice and experiences I derived that my original plan will work and the bass will sound the way I want to.

all maple body and neck
(perhaps walnut can be considered also)

neckthrough (+'s on the tone, -'s on adjusting)

35" (stronger string tension, i have big hands and i also play DB)

body shape: something realistic, a jazzbass body only a bit pointier.
Darkstrike did some wonderful work for me drawing it out so I could get a visual on it.
He is too good... thanks for helping me friend.

ebony unlined fretless fingerboard (that was a given from the start and never changed)


pick ups... back to my original idea on this one: just a singe P-style split coil in traditional position.
Some may think this is a silly thing to do.
I heard good arguments for going P/J but I had a P/J bass and a jazz bass (J/J), and played a lot of basses with these kind of configurations. The J singled at the bridge never did anything for me or paired with a P or J at the neck I found the tone to be a tad more muddy.
All the basses that I played that I liked just had a single P pickup.
I might regret a J placed when I'm not going to use it.
And if I regret not getting it, I guess I can ask the luthier to put one on afterward.

I talked about the pickup issue with my luthier, and he didn't thought it was a silly idea. It's a bit philosophycal.
1. Like them or hate them, a single P-style pickup will sure sound good, it's proven so many times.
2. What always bugged me is that "gap" between cheap basses and high-end basses. While high-end basses have better construction and finish, and often better playability, they don't usually offer simple pickup configuration. Mostly some pickups that define sort of a signature of a particular brand.
And it's a shame since there are so much aftermarket traditional pickups in all kinds of flavors.


These were the main issues I had, now I have a clearer view on them.

In about a week and a half I have another appointment with the luthier. Off course there is no rush. We'll sit down at the table and go over each aspect again, thoroughly. I want a bass that I'm satisfied with, and he wants a satisfied customer.

And off course I will keep posting the progress if we go through with it.

 

[Darkstrike]

Cool, sounds great, and the single P is a good choice. Which is easily replaceable with different sounding ones, if the tone dosen't suit. A nice agressive DiMazio could work wonders!

No bother dude, by the way, I loved workin' on it!