Headphones as mixing monitors?

[Rockin Mike]

I'm just getting into recording. I have a nice 8-channel interface and DAW. I went to mix my first song today, using my headphones (Audio Technica ATH-D40fs), mixing until it sounded OK, then when I went to play it back on my cheap Panasonic stereo, it was way too trebly and the bass guitar was almost missing!

So obviously I need some decent monitors to mix with, but if I were to use regular speakers I would run into the fact that the room's not treated (at all) and I don't actually have a place to put them.

Is it possible to make a proper mix using headphones as monitors?
If so, what are the best headphones to use?

Thanks!

 

[Timi]

It's very hard to get a headphone mix to translate well to speakers, this is why almost no professional mix engineers do their actual mixing on them. That said, there will be people out there doing fantastic mixes on headphones, I bet most of them are using open ear models (like AKG K702s or Sennheiser HD800s).

 

[seamonkey]

It is.
And you're doing the right thing. Mix it, then go try it on a stereo, TV, car, earbuds, and get that brain ear connection going so you can figure out in your head how your headphone mix will sound in different situations. Some recording engineers really earn their money as they can hear one mix, but virtually hear how it could sound on another system.

 

[zontar]

People I've met and interviews I've read indicate that for the best mix, most will sue a variety of methods to listen- including headphones, but not exclusively headphones. As he technology we use to listen to music changes, and varying by genre/intended audience, they'll listen o the mix on appropriate speakers.
What will it sound like on the radio? In your car, etc.
If it's music aimed at a highbrow audience they may use different ways to do than kids who will listen on their phones/ipods, etc, with earbuds.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

I'm not a DAW person, quite the opposite really, so I don't know if it's just the engineer in me talking, but I'd assume that all kinds of master EQ and compressor plugins that mimic the behaviour of different playback systems can be downloaded.
Or at least be made by the user.

Using reference program to tune Your system is also an age old recording/mixing (and even FOH tuning) trick.

Regards
Sam

 

[D.A.R.K.]

No matter what you use- headphones, monitors- you will have to learn how your setup translates to other systems. The one advantage headphones have over monitors is you are isolated from any acoustical environment. When using monitor speakers, your room acoustics have a dramatic effect on what you hear- the best speakers in the world won't sound right in a bad environment. No plug in can correct room issues- that's a job for acoustic treatment.

 

[Rockin Mike]

Very interesting, thanks for the replies.

Sounds like an important thing when mixing is to use monitors with a wide flat dynamic range. My headphones, for example, aren't very lively in the treble. I mixed it so the treble sounds good in the headphones and it was way too tinny on the stereo system. The (cheap) stereo, on the other hand, doesn't have great definition in the lows and mids. I would try tightening up the kick by rolling off lows below 50 Hz, for example, but I couldn't hear the difference on the stereo speakers.

I've heard it said that the best EQ is subtractive and I guess that's true. I will shop for a pair of phones (because treating the room is EXPENSIVE!) that has a wide dynamic range and doesn't have scoops or bumps. With those I will make a baseline full-range mix, and then play it in the car, on a boombox, as 128k mp3 on computer speakers, etc. and tweak the baseline to correct problems revealed there.

I'll bet it's near impossible for a single mix to sound good everywhere. Probably wind up with a few versions of each song's mix, and maybe some saved presets to apply to the baseline to get to that "car stereo mix" in one step.

You know those Sennheiser HD800s are around $1500, right?

 

[Syxz_ML]

I recently got into doing all my own personal DAW recordings. With everything I've done before I've came upon ur problem numerous times. Like stated early it was just a trial and error listening to mixes on different systems until I got it right. This time around though I came across some tascam "mixing" headphones. Essentially all these big brand headphones (beats by dre etc) tend to do some EQing to the sound. Say boost the bass, treble whatever. What mixing headphones are ment to do is give u a raw clear cut version of the material, where u won't find random differences in other systems. I've yet to start any actual mixing on any of the stuff I've started with so can't say for sure if it helps. Just something to look into though

 

[Rockin Mike]

You're right, mine are advertised as "Audio-Technica ATH-D40fs Professional Studio Monitor Precision Enhanced Bass Headphones" so they're not even pretending to be flat, and the boosted bass makes it no surprise that my mix came out too trebly (for the destination system).

So, I need to get a pair of oval 6x9 Jensen coax speakers and a coat hanger and make myself a car audio reference headphone

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

I've heard it said that the best EQ is subtractive and I guess that's true.

True to an extent, the boosting is usually avoided for the noise summing of parallel boosted amplifier stages.
With low noise OP-amps or with DSP the problem isn't IMLE not that pronounced.

I will shop for a pair of phones (because treating the room is EXPENSIVE!) that has a wide dynamic range and doesn't have scoops or bumps. With those I will make a baseline full-range mix, and then play it in the car, on a boombox, as 128k mp3 on computer speakers, etc. and tweak the baseline to correct problems revealed there.

First of all, what's Your budget?
If it's on the low side, even Sennheiser HD25 (the old ones anyway) can produce a decent mix.
I used to use my Beyerdynamic DT880's but since those broke down, I've used DT901's with decent results.

I'll bet it's near impossible for a single mix to sound good everywhere.

People have produced great mixes throughout the history of recorded music, it's "just" the matter of knowing how to do it.

Regards
Sam

 

[D.A.R.K.]

Just to put out there for consideration- I do mixing for my bread and butter these days, both live and post/ studio for music and film.
I tried out a lot of headphones last year ranging from 300-2000 dollars, as i'm working in the field a lot this year, and ended up purchasing a pair by the company
Focal. The model is the Spirit Professional. They are closed back but very even and have produced excellent results. The one draw back is that they are a bit bulky,
but at the price on only 350.00 they stood up to the Sennheisers mentioned, and I actually preferred them. They got a great review in Tape Op as well as Sound on Sound,
and were recommended to me by the post guys at National Geographic. On a budget, they are well worth consideration.
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[RDUB]

No matter what you use- headphones, monitors- you will have to learn how your setup translates to other systems. The one advantage headphones have over monitors is you are isolated from any acoustical environment. When using monitor speakers, your room acoustics have a dramatic effect on what you hear- the best speakers in the world won't sound right in a bad environment. No plug in can correct room issues- that's a job for acoustic treatment.

This says it all. You have to learn the translation. I have a treated room in my house, and use a pair of little known monitors, (Peavey AMR's that have been modified), and I still have to compensate a little bit for what I hear. If I crank the bass so that I hear what I'd like to in my car, for example, the low end will be hopelessly out of balance in my car and home stereo. Yamaha NS10m's, IMHO, and that of most others, suck for listening to music, but they have a flat even midrange that makes them ideal for critical listening, so they're very popular in studios.

You can do it with phones, and I've heard some good mixes done that way, but you have to know how what you hear will sound in the 'real' world.

 

[wrench45us]

I was very active creating music at home with some nice software packages. I did all my mixing using Grado 80 headphones, but I burned about 30 CDs during the learning process and played them on every audio system I could get my hands on, so I could 'calibrate' my ears and my mix. Once I had that down I didn't run into a lot of surprises, but there was a learning curve.
There's also a learning curve for studio quality monitors, but most serious home studio and up 'producers' will tell you it's better to have a good pair of flat response monitors in a treated room.

 

[dave_p]

I have ath m40fs that I use to track and mix. They are pretty flat so I actually have to be careful of my mixes being bass heavy. I switch between those cans and a pair of infinity primus 150 with a sub when mixing. When I get it to sound full and not bass heavy on the infinities I usually have a decent mix. I will then try it on other systems. The flatness of the ath m 40fs help reveal mid and high details in an unforgiving way and really help as far as cleaning tracks up goes.

 

[RDUB]

The flatness of the ath m 40fs help reveal mid and high details in an unforgiving way and really help as far as cleaning tracks up goes.

And I think that's the real secret to good monitoring. Phones or boxes, you need a reliable platform to work from.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I use high quality IEMs for mixing. They provide dual use as in ear monitors for gigs. It's expensive to sound treat a room, so good IEMs are a comparative bargain, especially since they also work at gigs. Headphones are generally good for studio use only.

 

[edpal]

Speakers in an untreated room will probably be better than cheap-> midgrade headphones for mixing..YMMV, just my 2 cents.

Different speakers - yeah, the mix that sounds good on our studio reference speakers sounds like my bass is about to bust a cone in my car. Factory stereo - trash.

 

[isher1992]

I've heard it said that the best EQ is subtractive and I guess that's true. I will shop for a pair of phones (because treating the room is EXPENSIVE!).

That's somewhat true, it's not really what's best, it's just that the ear just picks up on subtractive EQ'ing much quicker than it does additive.

An inexpensive way to treat your room is to throw up some rugs or fabric on the walls. Especially the larger walls that have no furniture in front of them.

And room treatment can help, but it won't matter if your monitors are crap. In our station's production room (a small college station), almost the entire room is treated, but the monitors are (really small and old JBL's I believe, probably 4-6" cones with a 1" tweeter) way too trebly, and not much in the low mid's or bass. If I mix using just those monitors, everything comes out muddy over the air, because I've taken the icepick-ish treble out and added more bass to compensate. I've gotten much better results from mixing on average Sony MDR headphones, then doing a rough mixdown and listening on PA speakers, car stereos, whether OE or aftermarket, and listening on a good hi-fi system. If it sounds good on all of those, I go back and master the Sweeper or Liner I'm working on, and it goes on air.

 

[Timi]

An inexpensive way to treat your room is to throw up some rugs or fabric on the walls. Especially the larger walls that have no furniture in front of them.

That will only absorb high frequencies, might help with some flutter/pinging but won't do anything to address the huge dips and peaks in the lows/low mids that most rooms suffer from.

 

[tangentmusic]

I think using headphones is good for sound placement/panning and balances, but you need external monitors (and a variety too) for proper real world EQ.