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headstock joint

#21
Here is a Luthier answer....

the reason to cut the neck at the nut and glue a piece at the desired angle, rather than shaping the headstock out of the same material as the neck is... if you cut the headstock and neck as a single piece you create "short grains" which will weaken the headstock and could cause it to crack or break parrellel to the nut. by making a glue "scarf joint" the grain is always in the direction of the greatest load, or strain or stress... whatever team you want to use. Thus there is no weakness that could cause the neck to fail.
 
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#22
I think the answer to adding strength to an angled headstock is carving in a volute. I don't either design will fail from string tension alone. And either can fail from a nasty fall/drop.
So, at the end of the day, the main reason for a scarf joint is not needing as large of a blank as you would need for a single piece.
More work for a scarf joint, more material wasted for a single piece.
Half dozen in one, 6 in the other.
 
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#23
RichterScale said:
I think the answer to adding strength to an angled headstock is carving in a volute. I don't either design will fail from string tension alone. And either can fail from a nasty fall/drop.
So, at the end of the day, the main reason for a scarf joint is not needing as large of a blank as you would need for a single piece.
More work for a scarf joint, more material wasted for a single piece.
Half dozen in one, 6 in the other.
Click to expand...


you are correct if comparing a headstock that is aligned with the neck(fender style). But if the headpiece is "tilted" back, and cut from the same piece (as many older Gibson guitars were made.) Then the result is that the headstock grain is parrellel to the neck but the headstock shape is not. thus creating Short graining" in the headstock which reduces the strength. in general, a glued joint does not weaken wood unless the gluing is done poorly. The typical glued joint is actually stronger than the wood surrounding it. even without the volute.
 
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#24
I'm always thinking in terms of laminated necks. That definitely adds strength to an angled head stock, even if it's cut from a single blank. Especially if purposefully selecting the lams for grain orientation.
I don't hear any complaints from folks that use a single piece neck or scarf joints.
But, for my me, I've zeroed in on laminated necks, cut from one blank and an angled headstock with a volute.
So, I'm always thinking in those terms.
The only reason I (me, personally) would do a scarf joint is if my blank wasn't tall enough to cut in the angle.
I wouldn't be upset, I would be confident in it's strength. I just prefer the look of the continuous wood with no breaks. And I'm not concerned with strength, doing it without a scarf. Mostly because I've seen it done so many times without any issues.
Also, I'm talking about relatively shallow angles. Like 7 degrees.
 
#26
17 yrs old =vintage squabble :)

fwiw, in the acoustic world there are elite taste makers who don't like the look of a scarf so doing a set back neck headstock is achieved by adding a face plate and a back plate to the headstock. this will get you up to the 180lb neighborhood of string tension range and hide the finish thirsty endgrain from public scrutiny. CF lams through the neck and continuing through the HS can help as well.

basses obviously have more tension so consider that.

personally, i use scarf joints in the 7 degree range exclusively but with a slotted headstock this brings the ramp angles to around 12 to 17 degrees. in my workflow i can complete a headstock "offline" with holes, slots, features, etc.. done before attaching it to the neck shaft. it's easier than it looks and imo no point in doing things the hard way. you do need to be a little careful where you end the transition point on the back of the neck but again pretty easy.

it also makes suitable wood purchasing a bit easier in that i can get a 36" x 3" x 7/8" piece of cedro or hog and make an entire neck out of it including a stacked heel and an endblock.
 
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#27
I've built lots with scarf joints, but I also like making them as @Arie X described with a laminated head and back plate to the headstock. Coupled with a volute and shallow headstock angle (~6 degrees total) it's plenty strong. :thumbsup:
 
#28
Are you referring to something like this?
HFN003 (1).jpg
 
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#30
bass theory said:
Here is a Luthier answer....

the reason to cut the neck at the nut and glue a piece at the desired angle, rather than shaping the headstock out of the same material as the neck is... if you cut the headstock and neck as a single piece you create "short grains" which will weaken the headstock and could cause it to crack or break parrellel to the nut. by making a glue "scarf joint" the grain is always in the direction of the greatest load, or strain or stress... whatever team you want to use. Thus there is no weakness that could cause the neck to fail.
Click to expand...

ive got 3 high end basses with scarf joints and one without. They are all super sturdy to the point that I’ve got 3 that I’ve played multiple gigs without even tuning, in humid/gross weather Louisiana. The one without a scarf is a modulus with a carbon fiber stringer and it’s solid but doesn’t really apply to your situation.
 
#33
Beej said:
Oh, maybe that's what Arie described? I was thinking more like laminating veneers on the front and back of a headstock to increase strength. :)
Click to expand...

naw, that picture above is not a scarf joint. nice detailed drawing on the wood though.

a headstock faceplate and a headstock backplate or the new term "back strap", are thin wood veneers glued on. a volute or a hand stop is cool, but forces can be transferred up to the peghead due to the extra stiffness in the volute area.
 
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#34
Another way to mitigate the short grain in a tilt back is to use ears on either side to strenghten across the short grain like this blank. This had the center made up of laminates but I've used solid cores before and I have also scarf joined the center, added ears with a back and front laminate to completely hide the scarf. What I do usually depends on the wood piece and design of the bass considering laminates or not.
IMG_7520[1].JPG

Here is the lefty I did with a hidden scarf joint using ears and both back and front laminates.
IMG_7522[1].JPG
 
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#37
i owned a vintage lp but i didn't buy it because of what might happen to the neck, or whether it had a volute or not (mine did btw). i bought it for the sound. tbh, they just don't break on their own. the people i've known who've broken their lp and sg headstocks have either sat on them, knocked them off a stand, or leaned them against a wall then bumped into them crashing them to the floor.

regarding changes, one thing to consider is that back then gibson could afford and were allowed to saw their way into a rain forrest full of hog for timber big enough to make one piece necks. not much so these days.
 
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#38
If you want to now the importance of doing a scarf joint, log onto a guitar forum where they discuss Gibsons. They don't fail just sitting there, but if you drop a Gibson on it's back, the headstock will come off pretty easily - they don't use a scarf joint. Lots of old Gibsons have had one (or several) headstock fixes in their lifetime - it's a very common failure. One of the pride points in luthiers that do repairs is how good they can be at hiding the fact that a Gibson headstock that they fixed.

Fenders don't do that, because the wood runs straight through the headstock. A scarf joint makes an angled headstock tough like a Fender. It's a bit of work, but a very good insurance policy against a common failure. Do you want to be at a gig with a broken headstock, and no bass to play - ever?
 
#39
I thought the Gibson's were prone to breaking, even with a scarf joint, because of: headstock angle, lack of volute and possibly because mahogany being a small factor? I'm taking a wild guess on the last one. I'm not sure how mahogany compares to hard maple in resisting breakage.
I think the fender headstock being parallel to the heel may also contribute to a smaller % of breaks due to falls (the ones where they fall flat on their back, anyway)
 

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